How much was the overpopulation problem in Poland alleviated by the migration of Poles to the Recovered Territories?

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gebhk
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Re: How much was the overpopulation problem in Poland alleviated by the migration of Poles to the Recovered Territories?

Post by gebhk » 26 Sep 2020 08:27

Hi Sid

I raised this point earlier. You are absolutely right that there was, off course, no problem of over-population of the country overall. However, there was an over-population in certain sectors of the economy - specifically in agriculture and, even more specifically, in small-holding agriculture. The solution was to move much of this excess farming population into industry and, while much, even very much, was being done to make that happen, given the starting point, it was going to be some time before a satisfactory balance could be reached. In the meantime he best that could be done was to export labour and this was done to the great benefit of French industry among others.

On the wider point you raise - you clearly don't understand the issue! 8O Britain becomes evidently too full when after you've moved into your nice new house built in the countryside, your nice view of rural England is ruined by the erection of yet more rabbit hutches like yours to house the next wave of city folks moving into the village :roll: . And if those new arrivals happen to be furriners, then clearly the four horses of the apocalypse are just around the corner. :o

On a more serious note, the UKs population problem is a potential one rather than an actual one. The land cannot sustain even half the population (some 1970s estimates put it as low as 16-17%) without massive import of food, even if we ploughed up every roadway to make room for farmland. This was less of a risk when Britain was a manufacturing powerhouse - even in my lifetime Britain produced something like a quarter of the world's serious manufactured goods output to trade for food. As I understand it, it is now less than 3% and falling.

I don't think AH thought the Germany of his day was over-populated. As I understand it, there had been a fall in the birthrate during the interbellum with the eastern provinces becoming noticeably depopulated - in contrast to the rapidly increasing population of Poland, say - a fact that gave the Nazis considerable disquiet. As you point out, they campaigned heavily to increase the German birth rate - in which they were moderately successful albeit not nearly enough to satisfy their ambitions.

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Re: How much was the overpopulation problem in Poland alleviated by the migration of Poles to the Recovered Territories?

Post by Futurist » 28 Sep 2020 04:44

Is anyone here able to translate this Nazi German cartoon? Does it say something about how Nazi Germany's population density is 2.5 times that of Britain and France? Or does it say something else--and, if so, what? :

https://www.thoughtco.com/thmb/5vsR8Rqa ... cf7d05.jpg

Image

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Re: How much was the overpopulation problem in Poland alleviated by the migration of Poles to the Recovered Territories?

Post by gebhk » 28 Sep 2020 08:44

Hi Futurist

I don't think it is a cartoon per se but an advert - it says (I think) that the German economic area has 2.5 times as many consumers as England or France. Presumably an invitation to invest in Germany (and Austria perhaps - depending on the dating). Alas the small print is too small for me to read.

On reflection, given that even with Austria, Memel, Chechia and the Sudetenland, the Reich had a population of just under 87 mil (according to Wiki) that is a long way from the 108.6 claimed - so more explanation is probably needed of what the 'economic area' covered exactly.

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Re: How much was the overpopulation problem in Poland alleviated by the migration of Poles to the Recovered Territories?

Post by Futurist » 28 Sep 2020 19:58

Maybe the economic area also covered the General Government in Poland? Just a guess; I don't know.

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Re: How much was the overpopulation problem in Poland alleviated by the migration of Poles to the Recovered Territories?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 29 Sep 2020 06:33

Is it dated?

Sid.

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Re: How much was the overpopulation problem in Poland alleviated by the migration of Poles to the Recovered Territories?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 29 Sep 2020 06:37

If nothing else, it illustrates well how large Hitler's Germany was compared to France and the UK. Its metropolitan population was about the same as that of both of them combined.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: How much was the overpopulation problem in Poland alleviated by the migration of Poles to the Recovered Territories?

Post by Futurist » 29 Sep 2020 07:46

If there is a date, I can't see it on it.

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Re: How much was the overpopulation problem in Poland alleviated by the migration of Poles to the Recovered Territories?

Post by Futurist » 29 Sep 2020 07:47

Sid Guttridge wrote:
29 Sep 2020 06:37
If nothing else, it illustrates well how large Hitler's Germany was compared to France and the UK. Its metropolitan population was about the same as that of both of them combined.

Cheers,

Sid.
Sure, but it didn't have twice the space of Britain and France--let alone of their colonial empires--now did it?

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Re: How much was the overpopulation problem in Poland alleviated by the migration of Poles to the Recovered Territories?

Post by gebhk » 29 Sep 2020 09:12

Hi Sid
If nothing else, it illustrates well how large Hitler's Germany was compared to France and the UK. Its metropolitan population was about the same as that of both of them combined.
Quite so! However this situation threatened not to remain that way in the longer term. In 1933 the per capita birth rate of Germany was lagging behind those of Britain and France. Worse still, Poland with its population of half that of Germany was producing virtually the same number of live births. By 1939 British, French and Polish birth rates had dropped slightly while Nazi policies had managed to encourage German women to 'outperform' their French and British counterparts significantly although they never caught up with Poland.

Which kinda brings us back, vaguely, to the subject in hand. :thumbsup:

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Re: How much was the overpopulation problem in Poland alleviated by the migration of Poles to the Recovered Territories?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 29 Sep 2020 10:42

Hi Futurist,

That was why I emphasised "metropolitan". The main resourcesof the British and French Empires was manpower, but this would take time to mobilised, especially in the British case. However, they could not be equipped from colonial resources. The core of the war effort of Britain, France and Germany was always in Europe, as was almost all the campaigning.

What is the significance of "space" in your reply?

Cheers,

Sid

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Re: How much was the overpopulation problem in Poland alleviated by the migration of Poles to the Recovered Territories?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 29 Sep 2020 10:47

Hi gebhk,

One of France's problems was not only that it had just half the population of Nazi Germany, but it had a lower birth rate. It reached an all time low in the late 1930s. As a result, from the mid 1930s Germany was training two conscripts every year to each French conscript. Hence the Maginot Line and the weakness of French support for Poland in 1939.

The sheer size of the population of France compared with that of its neighbours in previous centuries is also often overlooked. Louis XIV and Napoleon both had the largest national populations in Europe at their disposals,. As with Germany in the 20th Century the importance of quantity in their successes is often overlooked.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: How much was the overpopulation problem in Poland alleviated by the migration of Poles to the Recovered Territories?

Post by gebhk » 29 Sep 2020 14:03

A situation France has strenuously striven to rectify after WW2, with the consequence that it is now nearly caught up with Germany!

Who said that quantity has a quality all its own?

With the proviso that it is the number of births between, say 1911 and 1919 that concerns us here. And you are quite right, that during this time the French were producing half or less the number of babies the Germans were. In fact I am surprised that the Germans were training only twice as many conscripts as France after 1935 given that, presumably, there was the pool of older men who had not been trained 1918-1935?

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Re: How much was the overpopulation problem in Poland alleviated by the migration of Poles to the Recovered Territories?

Post by Futurist » 29 Sep 2020 22:33

Sid Guttridge wrote:
29 Sep 2020 10:42
What is the significance of "space" in your reply?

Cheers,

Sid
About Germany being overpopulated relative to Britain and France. Though it's worth noting that Germany's eastern territories were relatively sparsely populated, to my knowledge. However, I don't know if they could actually support and sustain a large population.

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Re: How much was the overpopulation problem in Poland alleviated by the migration of Poles to the Recovered Territories?

Post by gebhk » 02 Oct 2020 13:10

it's worth noting that Germany's eastern territories were relatively sparsely populated, to my knowledge. However, I don't know if they could actually support and sustain a large population.
Hi Futurist.

As I understand it, the scenario in the Eastern provinces was similar to that in Poland ie farming wasn't particularly lucrative. Consequently there was a trend for the workforce to up sticks and move west where they could find better-paid employment in industry and, hopefully, a better quality of life. As a result the eastern territories became more sparsely populated over time. Of course, in Poland there was not that much industry to migrate to, so a move to work in industry, in most cases, involved the more drastic step of emigration to another country.

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Re: How much was the overpopulation problem in Poland alleviated by the migration of Poles to the Recovered Territories?

Post by wm » 02 Oct 2020 18:01

gebhk wrote:
23 Sep 2020 23:19
Were car taxes dropped by then?
I am nowhere near finished trawling through the relevant legislation, but some patterns emerge. In the broadest sense, it would appear that the powers that be realised slowly that taxing motor transport out of existence was not the greatest idea ever. The level of tax was reduced over the years. Ignoring all manner of complications (for example vehicles with solid rubber tyres attracted a higher tax and metal-rimmed ones a higher tax still), if you were the new proud owner of a 1.5 tonne commercial truck and I am reading the bumph correctly:
From 28.2.31 you paid 600 zl tax.
From 29.3.33 it was 525 zl
From 2.7.36 it was 300 zl
From 16.2.38 it was 20 zl
It looks too good to be true. And it changed nothing because the entire industry, including fuels, was heavily taxed.
In 1939 it was estimated that a compact car required 2670 zlotys per year to maintan, meaning that only Polish one-percenters could afford it.

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