Warsaw Uprising 1944

Discussions on all aspects of Poland during the Second Polish Republic and the Second World War. Hosted by Peter K
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Yuri
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Post by Yuri » 05 Aug 2006 11:29

Michate wrote:
If the general de Gaulle has refused to execute requirements of Anglo-Americans it is possible to not doubt, that he would be arrested.
The Frenchmen (the general de Gaulle not exception) reasonable people also reckoned with real position. The Frenchmen have obeyed to the requirement of Anglo-American command.
Look at the Straßburg issue to learn how incorrect that is.
I am well familiar to that has occured to Strasbourg.
However to compare a situation in Poland of summer of 1944 and a situation in France the beginnings of 1945 (when there was a problem Strasbourg) there are no bases. Analogies between these situations are not present.
To the beginning of 1945 almost all territory of France has been already exempted from Germans.
By this time the administration of the general de Gaulle completely supervised a situation in the French state.
To the beginning of 1945 of the French armies in structure of forces of allies was already much. Thus, to the beginning of 1945 France de facto became the full member of an alliance.
However, general Eisenhower, making a decision to recede from area Strasbourg, did not begin to consult on the general de Gaulle about this very important decision for the French state.
It is clear, that de Gaulle as the head of the French state has been obliged to remind of it to general Eisenhower.

To speak about analogy in actions of the Frenchmen and Poles it would be possible at a following situation.
Imagine, that for some days of the beginning of landing of Anglo-Americans in Normandy (that is, some days prior to day D), for example, on June, 1st, 1944 the general de Gaulle and his French colleagues would land at this coast.

Imagine, that thus the general de Gaulle would not inform anything on the actions to Anglo-Americans.
Clearly, that it would revolt Anglo-Americans as in this case they should replace the plans urgently. In fact, premature occurrence of weak French forces in Normandy at all did not assist Anglo-Americans. On the contrary. In this case, the situation for Anglo-Americans sharply worsened, as premature occurrence of the Frenchmen at coast in Normandy would draw attention of Germans to this place.

Now, imagine, that in this situation Stalin instead of condemning the adventurer de Gaulle, would began to demand from Anglo-Americans to postpone the plans and to throw forces on rescue of these Frenchmen.
Imagine, that Anglo-Americans would find out still that to France profits from Russia about four tens German divisions.
Clearly, that in this situation landing in Normandy would turn back for Anglo-Americans additional tens thousand killed and hundreds thousand wounded.

At such situation that Anglo-Americans began to think of Stalin? Clearly, that anything good they about Stalin would not think.
That Anglo-Americans with de Gaulle and his colleagues for such adventure would make it is known to one to the God.
At least, at such succession of events Anglo-Americans have the right were to confirm, that the French general de Gaulle the rascal, and marshal Stalin the bastard.

However (as it is not sad) so looked in opinion of Russian of action of the London Poles and their Anglo-American patrons in August, 1944.
In the end of July the beginning of August, 1944 in Poland before Russian armies have appeared German divisions which were before in France and Italy.
Why the Polish Army Anders has not undertaken efforts to detain in Italy a tank division "Herman Goering"? Why Anglo-Americans have admitted, what Germans have thrown the reserves from France to Poland?

This moving of German reserves from France to Poland has allowed Anglo-Americans to be pulled out from narrow peninsula Kotanten on plains of France.
This moving of German divisions has allowed French and American armies on August, 15th, 1944 almost lost-free will land in the south of France. However it of simplification for Englishmen, Americans and the Frenchmen has turned back for Russian additional thousand victims the soldier and officers.
Now Russian soldiers and the officer should destroy those German divisions which earlier were before Englishmen, Americans, the Frenchmen, Canadians and Poles in France and Italy.

Instead of fruitless attempts to dump cargoes from planes above Warsaw, Anglo-Americans should make all possible to not admit moving reserve German divisions to Poland. In it, from the point of view of Russian, the effective contribution of Anglo-Americans to of struggle for clearing of Warsaw and Poland of invaders consisted.

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Alex Yeliseenko
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Post by Alex Yeliseenko » 07 Aug 2006 15:44

Intresting document.

Sorry, my bad translate.


Report of a recce department of a staff of 9-th army Wermacht about position in Warsaw and its vicinities.

On August, 2nd, 1944

1. Warsaw. After time night calm, in the early morning fights have renewed. Insurgents have surrounded the Main station, East station, Sorting station, telegraph, all telephone exchanges, the Hussar barracks, service buildings of a criminal police and police of the order. Risen it is possible to distinguish sometimes on red-white HEND to bandages with the Polish eagle or to the German uniform and Russian helmets. They are equiped by a small arms, mortars, anti-tank eqp - faust and anti-tank «Panzershrek». They are well trained and try to captured all over again fine German strong points, thus they have such forces that there was no opportunity to use the approached tanks while the strong point has not been finally suppressed. The main areas of an arrangement of insurgents - area of the Main post office, the Post area and Flower street. The building of post office has been attacked with such force that was necessary to depart from both lateral extensions.


Wide application of Molotov cocktail and construction of barricades put under doubt, that Reichschtrasse it will be cleared and that it will be kept long time.

Our losses and losses of the opponent are significant.

2. In woods SW the Warsaw, to the south of a bend of Vistula, are located large forces АК (Army Krayova) which till now totaled about 300 horsemen. 1.8 (august). In this wood they had been disarmed German division. German soldiers with the miss of insurgents have been sent back in Modlin.

3. In the morning 2.8 in Pecice (in 3 km SW the Prutkow) the prospecting group has been attacked by two-three hundreds soldier АК. From the German party 3 killed, from them 2 - officers, and 6 it is wounded. 120 soldier AK are killed and 60 MIA.

4. Under messages of the authorized representative, in Prutkow uprising.

5. Communistic gangs concentrate in a wood to the north of Warsaw in area Niniporent - Khomotov.

6. By messages of various authorized representatives, there are greater disagreements between national Resistance movement in Warsaw and the groups operating in a countryside, the contract with Soviet Union is perceived with very different feelings.

7. A conclusion from developed conditions: vigorous suppression of uprising in Warsaw will cause at risen fear and they will not lift revolt on all country.

Cenral archieves the Defence of Ministry Russian Federation

(. Ф. 500. Оп. 12479. Д. 663. Л. 483. The certified copy.)
.

szopen
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Post by szopen » 07 Aug 2006 17:50

Yuri, problem with your reasoning is that previous cooperation with soviet forces during for example Vilnius Uprising ended with disarming AK units and sending oficers to Siberia. Knowing that it's hard to expect that AK would willingly subdue Soviet forces.

PF
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Warsaw 1944

Post by PF » 25 Jan 2011 00:27


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Ponury
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Re: Warsaw 1944

Post by Ponury » 01 Aug 2013 14:17

It`s today...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ejd2rsXoQSI

My son Nicholas, today is a our good day. No, do not give toys today. Today is a celebration of polish Warsav Uprising 1944, those who fought to the end so you can speak Polish, living here where you live, walk on the ground you walk on, five sausages on the grill and roast not be like other people on the rack in the camp at Treblinka. So the torch in hand, hat from his head ... then failed to win, but we remember them, we draw conclusions. Statue of the Polish underground in Gdansk, Targ Rakowy street ... candles all the time arrives.

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henryk
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Re: Warsaw 1944

Post by henryk » 01 Aug 2013 19:40

http://www.thenews.pl/1/9/Artykul/14310 ... ote]Church: 1944 Warsaw Rising “not irresponsible”
PR dla Zagranicy Nick Hodge 01.08.2013 09:15
As Poland marks the 69th anniversary of the Warsaw Rising against the Nazi German occupying regime, the head of Poland's Episcopate has defended the insurgency. Papal Nuncio in Poland Archbishop Celestino Migliore takes part in a field mass on Wednesday in Warsaw in tribute to the Warsaw Rising.
Photo: PAP/Pawel Supernak
“The Warsaw Rising was not at all a sign of irresponsibility,” affirmed Cardinal Jozef Michalik, Archbishop of Przemysl, in a statement released on the official web site of the Episcopate. “Rather, it was the expression of a longing for freedom,” he stressed. “That is why I look with pain on all the malice, unfairness and dishonesty which certain luminaries today are trying to use in their interpretation of the Warsaw Rising,” he reflected.
The insurgency, which participants believed would last three days, ended two months after the 1 August 1944 outbreak, with about Polish 200,000 casualties (the vast majority civilians). The Red Army – technically a Polish ally – declined to help, in spite of earlier indications. A Soviet-backed communist regime was ultimately installed after the war.
A new book published this week by popular historian and journalist Piotr Zychowicz, Madness '44: How the Poles gave Stalin a present by launching the Warsaw Rising (Obled '44: Czyli jak Polacy zrobili prezent Stalinowi, wywolujac powstanie Warszawskie), argues that the insurgency was a senseless act of suicide. In 2011, Foreign Minister Radoslaw Sikorski was criticised by opposition MPs for “undermining” the “heroism” of the uprising by referring to it as a “national catastrophe." In 1944, several of Poland's key military leaders fighting in the West, including General Wladyslaw Anders, had advised against the Polish underground Home Army (AK) launching an insurgency, believing it had no chance of success. “Like all of my colleagues in the 2nd Corps, I was always of the opinion... that the Rising had no sense, that it was even a crime,” Anders wrote.
However, speaking with Polish Radio's English Section, Marzenna Schejbal, chairman of the Polish Home Army Ex-Servicemen's Association, London branch, defended the insurgency. We had had enough of sacrifices - with being taken to Germany for work, with the arrests, or being shot in the street," she said on a visit to Poland in 2012. “It was too long, and too much sacrifice. We couldn't wait for the liberation. And also we decided we wanted to liberate the country ourselves, and not have it done by Russia. Also, they [the Russians] were supposed to help us, and they didn't.” “A minute's silence will be held at 5 pm today in Warsaw, marking the outbreak of the Rising 69 years ago. Official commemorations will continue this evening. (nh) - See more at: http://www.thenews.pl/1/9/Artykul/14310 ... ySueM.dpuf[/quote]

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Re: Warsaw Uprising 1944

Post by Peter K » 05 Aug 2013 02:42

Check also my thread where you can read and post interviews with and memoirs of Warsaw Uprising veterans:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 1&t=200999
There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

PirateClimb76
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Re: Some pictures

Post by PirateClimb76 » 09 Jun 2021 05:58

Was researching MG34 and MG42's that were captured and used by the Polish resistance during different uprisings etc and noticed your comment specifically noting a picture you posted (Now long gone and unable to see it??!!) showing a captured MG42 being used. I've been looking for more info in pictures etc showing Poles in resistance (ie. partisans) using captured MG34 machine guns as well. Of course they'd use whatever they could get their hands on so we can, most likely, safely assume, yes indeed the 34s were used as well when they came across them. I'm responding here hoping I can get that photo posted once again and others if they're around if others see this and have info!

Liluh wrote:
14 May 2004 21:39
Image

Polish troops during uprising. I can`t find better word so let`s use "partizants". Note the equippment. Four of them have german helmets with a white eagle, the fifth one has got, propably, soviet helmet. Obviously only 2 or 3 of them have a gun, including one with mg42 taken from germans. The rest carries ammo and helps. If any of them will fall, the other one will pick up his rifle. That`s how it went. Only around 40% of those who fought had a rifle or at least something to shoot with. The rest helped, did courier or nursery tasks, throw granades or, mainly, so called molotov`s coctails.

Image

Germans destroyed High School on Chlodna street. While only around 40% of the city buildings, in fighting areas got completly destroyed, after the death of uprising germans destroyed the rest of the city house by house, building by building - that was on direct Hitlers order to erase Warsaw from the map. After the war only 25% of buildings still hold their walls straight, and mainly on the eastern part of Warsaw.

Image

Barricades. City was full of it. Anything could be good to fortify, trams, cars, wardrobes, furniture, bricks and at some point, there was a barricade made out of steam trains.

Image
What`s that? Oh well, you`ll guessl. Freshly won on wehrmacht.[/img]

gebhk
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Re: Warsaw Uprising 1944

Post by gebhk » 12 Jun 2021 11:29

Hi PirateClimb76

Have you looked on the Muzeum Powstania Warszawskiego website. There are some 400-odd photos of weaponry: I didn't pick up any MG34/42 (there were a few MG08/15 and ZBs) but your more experienced eye may well pick out something I've missed. A quick review of Dni Powstania (a large photo-album of the Warsaw Uprising published in 1957) showed a few - mainly from the later stages of the uprising. Earlier photos tend to show ZBs and MG 08/15s which perhaps reflects the equipment of the police and such-like formations which were overrun by the insurgents at the outset of the uprising?

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Liluh
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Re: Warsaw Uprising 1944

Post by Liluh » 12 Jun 2021 11:50

Take a look here

https://www.1944.pl/fototeka/uzbrojenie,96.html

You can notice 34's in a couple of pictures there.

42's in combat are harder to find, although there is a whole variety of testimonies from the insurgents confirming using those here and there.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... (1944).jpg

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