Polish artillery

Discussions on all aspects of Poland during the Second Polish Republic and the Second World War. Hosted by Peter K
Stephan
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Re:

Post by Stephan » 05 Apr 2010 07:53

Kocur wrote: Also locally produced.
Both AT and AA Bofors guns were also exported. Anegdote: I have read about two cases of Polish troops 'meeting' Polish production guns, previously sold to UK: AA in Norway, AT in North Africa.
Yes, sure.

As I read somewhere, Poland was de facto sort of sub-producer for the Bofors. Big orders which Bofors didnt managed to produce alone, they got help with the production from Poland. Not some parts, but whole cannons.

One extra, interesting point is we get here an extra insight: the polish industry must have been quite good and quite advanced. As the Bofors AA cannons were the real top of the line in that calibre.

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Re: Polish artillery

Post by YAN » 08 Feb 2013 16:24

I have some difference in figures for the 75mm Vz. 02/26 Field Gun, one I have is that out of a total of 429 76.2mm M.02s, around 446 were converted to 75mm (that would leave 17 un-converted), another figure is 429 M.02s were converted, and finally another says that the Polish Army in 1939 had 425 75mm Vz.02/26s.

If you are confused, well so am I.
Yan.

gebhk
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Re: Polish artillery

Post by gebhk » 25 Feb 2013 21:13

Can't lay my hands on the principal documents at present (aint that always the case?) so cant tell you the number of 02/26s in service. However, after the moderrnisation programme, there were 98 original 02 guns left according to Konstankiewicz. 32 were in storage according to 31.8.39 stock return, the remainder were presumably allocated to the 'fortress artillery' otherwise known as 'positional artillery' and mostly deployed in 'fortress/positional platoons' whose job was to defend forward positions at the outbreak of war using up as much ammo as possible and the crews would then retire after destroying the weapons. The gun deployed on Westerplatte is a good example of this philosophy.

The modernisation process did not just involve rechambering/jacketing the guns to fire French 75mm ammunition as is often supposed, but also converting the sighting mechanisms to metric, replacing the recoil spade and trailspike with those of the Schneider 75 and adding illumination for the sighting mechanism for night firing and some other minor changes.

YAN
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Re: Polish artillery

Post by YAN » 26 Feb 2013 10:47

Thank you Gebhk, do you have any data of the numbers and types of the 75mm Wz.97 Field Guns, I have seen photos of two types, the standard mle 1897 with wooden wheels, and the more modern mle 97/33 which looks more like an Anti-Tank Gun with large rubber wheels.

Yan.

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Re: Polish artillery

Post by gebhk » 26 Feb 2013 12:27

I will try to locate the relevant papers re numbers of horse drawn weapons.

The Polish pneumatic wheel jobs were simply bog standard wz 1897 guns on French wheels. They served the same purpose as the horse-drawn version but in the 1 Motorised Artillery Regiment. A battery of 4 was with the 10 CB and two batteries of 4 in the Warsaw Armoured/Mechanised Brigade for a grand total of 12 tubes in the army.

YAN
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Re: Polish artillery

Post by YAN » 26 Feb 2013 13:59

Thanks for the reply Gebhk.

It does get confusing when you read wiki, it states that the Polish Army used the 75mm mle 1897 Puteaux Gun and then it says that the Poles also used the 75mm mle 1912 Schneider.
Would both guns use the same designation of 75mm Wz.97, if so would the new motorised version (with rubber wheels have the same name too.

Regards.

Yan.

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Re: Polish artillery

Post by gebhk » 26 Feb 2013 22:10

Sadly Wiki only as good as the author!

Can't find the source documents quickly so here is Konstankiewicz to be getting on with:
65mm mountain gun wz 1906 - 24
75mm field gun wz 1897 - 1230
75mm field gun wz 1902/26 - 425
3" field gun wz 1902 - 89
100mm howitzer wz 1914/19A - 336
100mm hiwitzer wz 1914/19P - 510
105mm field gun wz 1913 - 118
105mm field gun wz 1929 - 124
120mm field gun 1878/09/31 -32
120mm field gun 1878/10/31 - 6
155mm howitzer wz 1917 - 340

No idea what the Schneider mle 1912 looks like but never heard of it in the context of the Polish army in 1939.

Regarding the Puteaux, perhaps some confusion with the 37mm infantry gun wz 1918 of which about 90 were still languishing in magazines in 1939.

YAN
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Re: Polish artillery

Post by YAN » 27 Feb 2013 10:41

Hi Gebhk, thanks for the data, it has cleared up a few discrepancies in my totals.
I always thought that the Poles had some 37mm Wz.1918s, but I suppose they replaced them with the 65mm Wz.1906, I think they used this Gun in the Infantry support role by adding a large armoured shield.

Here is a link to wiki regarding the 75mm mle 1912 Schneider;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_de_7 ... _Schneider

It mentions about them being used in the Polish-Bolshevik war in 1919, so maybe they were scraped or lost before 1939.

Thanks again.

Yan.

gebhk
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Re: Polish artillery

Post by gebhk » 27 Feb 2013 12:07

Thanks for that, tres interesting - I assume this is a horse artillery version of the mle 1897?

While anything was possible in the Polish-Bolshevic war I would be very wary of any story that is not backed up by good evidence. Pretty much anything in the French equipment park that was left after the war was 'sold' or 'donated' to Poland after the war by some author or other :) - QED the A7V saga! I may of course have to eat my words after I find the magazine stock list for Aug '39. :roll:

I would suggest that if anything the 37s were replaced by the Bofors 37mm A/T guns in the fullness of time. The 65s remained firmly in the purview of the artillery and in any case existed in too small numbers to be usable as an infantry weapon.

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YC Chen
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Re: Polish artillery

Post by YC Chen » 28 Feb 2013 05:53

Hello all,
I wonder if here is anyone who is knowlegeable enough to answer a question which has been puzzling me for a long time.

China had a number of French Cannon de 65 and 75mm Mle 1897 in the 1940s, but their origin has long been a mystery. Some said they were ordered from France. However, no account of their acton before WW2 can be found.

However I have made an astonishing discovery since I began to collect wartime Chinese artillery manuals. In these manuals almost all types of ammunition used by Cannon de 65 and 75mm Mle 1897 as well as some ammunition of Bofors 40mm are labelled "made in Poland". This makes me think that maybe these guns were all ordered from Poland. I knew there were some Polish weapons sold to China in 1938 but I thought they were all small arms. I think these two types of guns were not advanced for Poland in 1938 so it makes sense for Poland to sell them to China which was at that time in desperate need for war materials.

Is this theory possible? I can provide some pictures of the shells claimed to be made in Poland if needed.

(P.S. another explanation of these Polish shells is that they were "captured by the Russians and then given to China". )

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Re: Polish artillery

Post by YAN » 28 Feb 2013 11:21

Good Morning Gebhk.

What was the difference between the 100mm Howitzer Wz.1914/19A and 100mm Howitzer Wz.1914/19P? Was one horse drawn and the other motorized (C4P Tractor).

The same goes for the 105mm Field Gun Wz.1913 and 105mm Field Gun Wz.1929, was the Wz.13 horse drawn and the Wz.19 motorized ? I have read that some of these Guns were towed by the C4P Tractor, so was the Wz.19 the tractor towed version.

Concerning the two 120mm Guns, the Polish Army converted around 40 of these Guns in 1933 to 1934 (merging the Barrels of the French mle 1878 with carriage of the Russian M.1909), the Guns had wooden spoked wheels with steel trim, so was these the Wz.1878/09/31, the six Wz.1878/10/31 could be just the same weapon but with rubber wheels, maybe to be towed by Tractors.

Hi YC, I am certain that someone will know the answer to your request, it is out of my scope, but there are some very knowledgeable people on this site who will know the answer to your question.

Yan.

gebhk
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Re: Polish artillery

Post by gebhk » 28 Feb 2013 14:25

Nothing that simple I'm afraid :(.
The 19/14P was an export version of the Skoda vz 19/14 with modifications made at Polish request. An initial batch was purchased and production continued under license in Poland. Poland also had a stock of Skoda vz 1914 howitzers which were retrofitted to 19/14 standards (this mainly involved a new longer barrel I think) and these were redesignated wz 1914/19A. Of the whole 100mm stock only 4 were equipped with pneumatic wheels and served with the 10CB. There was no change of designation.

The wz 13 and wz 29 although both designed by Schneider and in the same class (105mm 'long range' gun) were different weapons. One (can't remember which) was fitted with a pneumatic-wheeled dolly for trials when the Polish Army flirted with the concept of motorising the divisional heavy artillery in the early thirties. The international economic debacle put paid to that idea and to my knowledge this was the only 105mm gun motorised in Poland.

Re the 120s the difference relates to the origin of the carriage 1878/09/31 used the Russian M1909 howitzer carriage while the 1878/10/312 the M1910. Twelve were converted to motorised traction without change of designation.

YC - I have a colleague who specialises in Polish interwar military export he may be able to give better informed opinion. Given that Poland was in dire shortage of ammunition for its own use due to problems with sourcing adequate supply of high-quality HE, I think your second option more likely (and when did Germany stop supply to China?). However this is mere speculation. One way or another I am sure many of my Polish colleagues would be fascinated by your 'made in Poland' shells so please let us see them if possible :)

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Re: Polish artillery

Post by Njorl » 28 Feb 2013 16:13

YAN wrote:The same goes for the 105mm Field Gun Wz.1913 and 105mm Field Gun Wz.1929, was the Wz.13 horse drawn and the Wz.19 motorized ? I have read that some of these Guns were towed by the C4P Tractor, so was the Wz.19 the tractor towed version.
The main visual difference between armata 105 mm wz. 13 and armata 105 mm wz. 29 was that wz. 29 had split trail, while wz. 13 had box trail.

Regards
MJU

YAN
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Re: Polish artillery

Post by YAN » 28 Feb 2013 17:50

Thanks to you both (Gebhk & MJU).
Yan.

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Re: Polish artillery

Post by YAN » 01 Mar 2013 10:59

I have been trawling around the net and I found various sites with conflicting data, but I found a few which agree and certain specs about both guns, so I took data from the sites which matched each other.

105mm Wz.13 Medium Gun
Year: 16 in arrived in 1919 and 64 in 1920
Type: Medium Gun
Origin & Make: French/Schneider mle 13
Calibre: 105mm L/28
Barrel Length: 2.897m
Length of Weapon: 6.3m
Elevation: -5° to +37°
Traverse: 6°
Shell Weight: HE 15.3 kg
Muzzle Velocity: 550 m/s
Weight in Transit: 2.650kg
Weight in Action: 2.300 kg
Maximum Range: 12.500m.
Rate of Fire: 6 rpm
Crew: 8
Traction: Horse Drawn (may be some of the ones delivered in 1920, got converted for Motorized transport)

105mm Wz.29 Medium Gun
Year: 1934+
Type: Medium Gun
Origin & Make: French/Schneider design, improved and made in Poland
Calibre: 105mm L/31
Barrel Length: 3.24m
Length of Weapon: 6.4m
Elevation: -0° to +43°
Traverse: 25° right/Left
Shell Weight: HE 15.55 kg
Muzzle Velocity: 600 m/s
Weight in Transit: 3.410kg
Weight in Action: 2.880 kg
Maximum Range: 15.200m.
Rate of Fire: 8 rpm
Crew: 9
Traction: Horse Drawn & Motorized (C4P Tractor)

Please tell me if you don’t agree with any of the specs I have posted.

Yan.

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