Polish artillery

Discussions on all aspects of Poland during the Second Polish Republic and the Second World War. Hosted by Peter K
Pibwl1
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Re: Polish artillery

Postby Pibwl1 » 12 Jun 2013 15:42

Carl Schwamberger wrote:Yes those were of interest. Do you have any other items like this?


Have you seen a whole plate of 75mm rounds for wz.1897 from Polish military manual? If not, I can upload it.

Michal

Carl Schwamberger
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Re: Polish artillery

Postby Carl Schwamberger » 12 Jun 2013 23:05

Yes. I'd like to have that. Thanks.

Pibwl1
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Re: Polish artillery

Postby Pibwl1 » 13 Jun 2013 15:16

You can find some info on ammunition on http://derela.republika.pl/art_75schneider.htm
Colors depended partly on explosive used (trotyl = TNT, melinite, saletra = saltpeter)
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Pibwl1
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Re: Polish artillery

Postby Pibwl1 » 13 Jun 2013 15:19

And a shrapnel ("substitute shrapnel" R/33 is probably for peacetime training)
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Carl Schwamberger
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Re: Polish artillery

Postby Carl Schwamberger » 13 Jun 2013 16:44

Thanks. Those are excellent & I will be saving copies in my collection. If you find anything concerning fire control equipment I'd appreciate seeing it as that is my primary interest = The charts and computational equipment for indirect fire, the optical equipment, the telephones & other communications kit.

Thanks again.

AlekBolduin
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Re: Polish artillery

Postby AlekBolduin » 14 Jun 2013 20:32

What were the reasons to have 1 heavy artillery battalion in each infantry division?
Every of this battalion was very weak –there only of 6 guns (3 150-mm howitzers and 3 105-mm cannon) in each. It is not enough to make a good artillery barrage on the battlefield in each case.
At the same time, 180 «precious» heavy guns (90 150-mm and 90 105- mm) - about 30% of Poland heavy filed artillery - were «dispersed» throughout all Poland at such small parties. Why not do the normal 15 battalions (each at 12) artillery reserve for use on important areas?

Carl Schwamberger
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Re: Polish artillery

Postby Carl Schwamberger » 14 Jun 2013 23:39

I see in the diagrams of the ammunition there are two types of Granat projectile, shown as Ryo 6 & Ryo 7. I am guessing those were designed for penetrating concrete and similar hardened targets? If my memory is correct the US Army had a very similar 75mm projectile for use against concrete, masonry, metal plate, or other hard surfaces. Perhaps both the Polish and US designs were derived from a earlier French pattern?

Pibwl1
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Re: Polish artillery

Postby Pibwl1 » 15 Jun 2013 09:51

AlekBolduin wrote:What were the reasons to have 1 heavy artillery battalion in each infantry division?
Every of this battalion was very weak –there only of 6 guns (3 150-mm howitzers and 3 105-mm cannon) in each. It is not enough to make a good artillery barrage on the battlefield in each case.


You mean, that divisional heavy artillery should be used to strengthen reserve? I don't know, but I think it is desirable for a division to have own artillery component. And the reason, they were weak, was simple lack of money :roll:
There were plans for infantry divisions to have 8 x 155 mm and 4 x 105 mm.

I see in the diagrams of the ammunition there are two types of Granat projectile, shown as Ryo 6 & Ryo 7. I am guessing those were designed for penetrating concrete and similar hardened targets? (...) Perhaps both the Plish and US designs were derived from a earlier French pattern?


Yes, they were semi-AP and AP grenades. All marks of rounds until 1918 were obviously French designs, ALR/2 must have been French as well. Some specifications are on a quoted page.

Michal

gebhk
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Re: Polish artillery

Postby gebhk » 17 Jun 2013 00:36

I'm afraid Alek is right. The heavy artillery battalion was of little use to the division given that in effect it had three guns for each type of mission (3x 150mm for heavy support and 3x 105mm for counter-battery). Despite that, regardless of number of tubes, the amount of C&C and support required would be pretty much the same as for a full-blown 12 tube battalion (to put it in context these 6 guns were supported by approximately 150 horse drawn vehicles (and nearly double that if recruited from the poorer parts of the country where 1-horse wagons were the norm rather than 2-horse jobs)). Add to this the chronic problems with ammunition supply and you can begin to comprehend the headache this unit posed to the divisional CinC artillery. Without doubt far more could have been achieved with the available park if the guns had been concentrated in heavy artillery regiments at army level. In abstraction, the obvious solution would have been to create corps artillery but of course there were no corps structures in the Polish army - but that is another can of worms. Please don't take offence PIBWL, but the poverty argument rather points us the other way - as well as probably more effective, massing the guns in larger units would have significantly reduced costs by reducing the amount of command and control resources required, thus saving money which could have been invested in more guns and more ammo. It would also have made motorisation of the heavy ammunition columns - and absolute essential to make this branch effective in modern war - an altogether more realistic prospect.

AlekBolduin
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Re: Polish artillery

Postby AlekBolduin » 17 Jun 2013 12:36

I have read in Muller - Gilderbrand that German division have 6 heavy field guns (2x3) in the 1936-37 year. It was an intermediate step (for training) to have one full heavy artillery battalion (12 15 cm guns) later.
Poland did not have a lot of tools to make quickly 1 heavy artillery battalion, and in each division.
It was been:
254 105-mm guns
341 155 mm howitzers
43 120-mm guns
27 220-mm mortars
This could give the 49 battalions (-105.154 to 12-mm or mixed), 3 Battalions, 220-mm, (9), 4 battalions (10-12) 120 mm. Total 56 heavy artillery battalion NWW.
That's a lot!.
The Wehrmacht had in 1939 only 83 heavy artillery battalion HEER (6 10.5cm guns, 69 10.5 sm/15-sm, 7 15-sm/21-sm, 1 24 cm heavy guns), 18 of them against the West, 65 against Poland, and heavy rail 19 batteries.
Plus of course in German division was a heavy artillery battalion each.
Theoretically, it was possible to have almost the equivalent of Polish heavy artillery battalions NWW vs heavy artillery battalions HEER (56 versus 65) - through the use of light artillery (75 +100- mm) for the division (and no "small" battalions of 6 guns).
It may be 7-8 heavy artillery battalions in each of the Polish Army, for example. For heavy artillery barrages, on important areas and at important time.
In reality, there were 12 light battalion (75 mm), 3 light battalion (100 mm), 16 heavy artillery battalion (105\155-mm) in 8 artillery regiment, 4 heavy battalion (155 mm) and 3 heavy mortars battalions (6-220 mm each). Total: 23 heavy and 15 light artillery battalion reserve.
This was «rubbish» use guns.

Pibwl1
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Re: Polish artillery

Postby Pibwl1 » 17 Jun 2013 16:22

I'm not saying, that usage of Polish artillery was optimal. I don't know, if a divisional heavy artillery can be replaced with an army one, although what you write is interesting. Of course, it would be better to use effectively all guns, in strong units, and preferably motorized. Speculating further, 3 battalions of useless 220 mm mortars could have been replaced with, roughly counting, at least 9-12 motorized heavy artillery battalions, for the same money. But it's a posterior wisdom.

Maybe a heavy artillery could have been assigned in more effective way, within limits of existing resources, but apart from a sole number of artillery pieces, there were surely other limiting factors, usually connected with a need to assign extra money (and a reluctance to do so).

BTW: preparing to describe 105 mm guns, I've found, that there were some 262-270 available in 1939 (254 refers to June 1939, without new production), but only 190 were used in mobilized units! (90 in 30 infantry divisions, 96 in 8 detachments and 4 in Naval Artillery Detachment (usually omitted)). I don't know at the moment, why reserve Infantry Divisions did not receive their heavy artillery units, and what happened with other guns. There remained also numerous surplus 155 mm howitzers.

Pibwl1
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Re: Polish artillery

Postby Pibwl1 » 17 Jun 2013 16:27

AlekBolduin wrote:In reality, there were 12 light battalion (75 mm), 3 light battalion (100 mm), 16 heavy artillery battalion (105\155-mm) in 8 artillery regiment, 4 heavy battalion (155 mm) and 3 heavy mortars battalions (6-220 mm each).


Small correction: 8 battalions with 75 mm and 6 with 100 mm.

AlekBolduin
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Re: Polish artillery

Postby AlekBolduin » 17 Jun 2013 17:45

Refine
75 mm : 12 battalions (41, 42,48,50,58,59,62, 64,67,71,75, 81dal)
100-mm : 3 Battalions (65, 68,71,78 dal)
A total of 15 light artillery battalions NWW?
42 dal was changed from 100 mm to 75 mm in May 1939?
If I remember correctly 4 guns in the coastal artillery, were not 4 105-mm? but 2-152 mm and 2-105 mm, they are considered separately?

The Polish army used in their war-time formations (without improvised formations), very roughly about:
68% of 155-mm howitzers (~ 234 of 341)
73% of the 105-mm guns (~ 186 of 254)
66% of 100-mm howitzers (~ 596 of 900)
77% of 75-mm guns (~ 1408 of 1832)
47% of 81-mm mortars (~ 1000 of 2142)
There were also very funny attempts to make the armored train (instead of railway heavy batteries, for example)
It seems to me that a mobilization plan was not very good….

Pibwl1
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Re: Polish artillery

Postby Pibwl1 » 17 Jun 2013 21:37

AlekBolduin wrote:Refine
75 mm : 12 battalions (41, 42,48,50,58,59,62, 64,67,71,75, 81dal)
100-mm : 3 Battalions (65, 68,71,78 dal)
A total of 15 light artillery battalions NWW?
42 dal was changed from 100 mm to 75 mm in May 1939?


According to Konstankiewicz, 2003 (referring to Zarzycki) there were mobilized:
75 mm : 8 battalions (41, 48, 50, 58, 59, 64, 67, 81)
100-mm : 6 Battalions (42, 52, 62, 68, 71, 78 dal)
- a total of 14 out of 21 planned.

AlekBolduin wrote:If I remember correctly 4 guns in the coastal artillery, were not 4 105-mm? but 2-152 mm and 2-105 mm, they are considered separately?


There are mixed two things. In a coastal artillery (against shipping) there were 4 x 152 mm Bofors on fixed mounts, 4 x 105 mm (I don't know what guns - probably on ordinary carriages) and 2 x 100 mm Canet on fixed mounts (I'm not counting 75 mm).
But I'm referring to Naval Light Artillery Detachment of Coastal Land Defence (LOWyb), which fought around Gdynia and had 4 x 105 mm (probably wz.29, if a photo found on Ebay is properly described) and 7 x 75 mm wz.97.

AlekBolduin wrote:There were also very funny attempts to make the armored train (instead of railway heavy batteries, for example)


I don't know if you mean 10 regular armoured trains, which weren't so funny and appeared quite useful in several cases - or an improvised railway battery of 2 x 75 mm guns of Coastal Land Defence. Poland had no free 152 mm guns on naval mounts to create improvised heavy batteries...

AlekBolduin wrote:And It seems to me that a mobilization plan was not very good….


Well, that's the other story. But the question is, if it could be much better in given circumstances?

AlekBolduin
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Re: Polish artillery

Postby AlekBolduin » 17 Jun 2013 22:58

42 dal -have 75-mm at 05/39
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/42_Dywizjo ... ii_Lekkiej
75 dal - 75-mm
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/75_Dywizjo ... ii_Lekkiej
62dal -75-mm
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/62_Dywizjo ... ii_Lekkiej
71 dal 75-mm
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/71_Dywizjo ... ii_Lekkiej

Are you mean -pl-wiki not correct?
ou "Naval Light Artillery Detachment" -you call as "morski dal" ?

Armor traine -a bit good in 1920 but no in 1939
It is better to do the heavy guns on "railway traction"
as it was done all in 30-40 (German 17-cm K17E, or Soviet 180-mm at "Osobaya Morskay Jelesnodorojnaya Artillerya"). Even finns had a one 152-mm railway gun in 1939 (on North Ladoga front)

Yes... I think... Mobilization planing (and military bilding at 30th yars) not only much better...it was must be better..


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