Polish claims on Wilno/Vilnius

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kept
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Re: Polish claims on Wilno/Vilnius

Post by kept » 02 Oct 2009 08:29

henryk wrote:These decisions were published in Vilniaus Žinios on December 7.
Sorry, I don't see them there... :roll: Do you need a link to this newspaper?
henryk wrote:By 1907 outwardly Vilna city and province were again quiet. In Vilna governor D. Liubimov’s report of that year, revolutionaries or strikes are not even mentioned. Rather, Liubimov concentrated on the pernicious effect of the Catholic clergy and Poles. The governor remarked that at the present time “The term ‘Pole’ in Vilna province has lost its ethnographic character and become almost exclusively a political term [i.e., for opposition to the government].” As for Lithuanians, they were more interested in fighting the Poles than the Russians.
Clipping from the newspaper you mentioned - „Vilniaus žinios”. December 7th, 1905.
Whereas in the second district of Vilnius, lithuanian sodiečiai (~peasants) started to propel district administrators and teachers – russians. The Chief of Vilnius went there to investigate peasants claims.
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Re: Polish claims on Wilno/Vilnius

Post by henryk » 02 Oct 2009 19:56

Kept:
Perhaps either the date of the newspaper abstract you posted is in the Julian calendar and the article date is in gregorian or vice versa.

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Re: Polish claims on Wilno/Vilnius

Post by Streckenbach » 04 Oct 2009 05:13

Hallo everybody,
very interesting your little ,but long lasting quarrel.But fact is as well Poland dosn´t existed up to the WW I. It was founded new after WW I. by the winning nations on cost of its neighbors,mainly germany.My graetgrandfather was
born at a little town near Bromberg,as a german,with german name and german nationality,so as well my grandfather and my father.After the first WW,when the province Posen became polish they all were kicked out,when they refused
to take the polish nationality and went to Pommern/Cammin.After the second WW,they were kicked and beaten out
again,because Pommern became polish up to the river Oder.When I came back to Cammin,about 10 tears ago, it was called Kamien-Pommerski and one could see that there never are any sign of german culture.
The Dom of Cammin which was allways a protestant church,of course was catholic,but not only from 1945 onwards,"but allways."On the graveyard in Heidebrink I was trying to find some sign of my grandparents searching for the tombstones,there was none.But tombstones with polish names and polish lenguage are starting from May 45 onwards.No polish subject died before 45 ? The whole polish history on pommern and Westprussia are a fake,in order to claim some rights on this area.It seems to me ,that is part of polish nature,to claim some thing which never was yours,but in a manner like, being self a thief ,but shouting aloud ," get hold of the thief" in order to get all people on your side.I am sure
whatever your say and whatever you come up with,like maps ,census figures etc. it,s just fake and lies,like polish claims on Lithuinia and Galicia.

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Re: Polish claims on Wilno/Vilnius

Post by Musashi » 04 Oct 2009 15:13

Streckenbach wrote:Hallo everybody,
very interesting your little ,but long lasting quarrel.But fact is as well Poland dosn´t existed up to the WW I.
I don't know who taught you history but you should sue him/her for his ignorance and the fact you ridicule yourself on an Internet forum because he/she has not taught you history properly. You have an article about the first Polish state:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of ... %931385%29
Now you can claim you are more knowledgeable than your teacher. Let's imagine me claiming that a German state had not existed before 1871. If any German members read something like that they would come to a conclusion something is wrong with me and I need a help of a good specialist. Got the point?
Streckenbach wrote:It was founded new after WW I.
Nobody exactly knows when it was founded but it was Christianized in 966. We don't have any diaries from the pagan era but the state must have been founded before.
Streckenbach wrote:[...]by the winning nations on cost of its neighbors,mainly germany.
Wrong again - mainly Russia.
Read about the partitions of Poland and you can express your opinion if something like that was fair:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partitions_of_Poland
Streckenbach wrote:My graetgrandfather was
born at a little town near Bromberg,as a german,with german name and german nationality,so as well my grandfather and my father.
I can say the same about my grandparents who were born as Poles in the lands that belong to Ukraine now.
Streckenbach wrote:After the first WW,when the province Posen became polish[...]

No, Greater Poland province had been Polish very long time before it became German in 1793. Read the second article about the partitions of Poland and you will have a chance to be a teacher as I see something is wrong with German history education. We can argue about some matters, and there is nothing wrong in that, but some things are FACTS and are unarguable.
Streckenbach wrote:[...]they all were kicked out,when they refused
to take the polish nationality and went to Pommern/Cammin.After the second WW,they were kicked and beaten out
again,because Pommern became polish up to the river Oder.
I can say the same about my family who was living near Lwów/Lviv before WWII. The difference between us is, my family spoke a perfect Ukrainian despite of being Polish and I've never claimed there had not been a Ruthenian state in these lands.
Streckenbach wrote:When I came back to Cammin,about 10 tears ago, it was called Kamien-Pommerski and one could see that there never are any sign of german culture.
It also happened to the Polish towns that belonged to Poland before 1945 or 1795.
Streckenbach wrote:The Dom of Cammin which was allways a protestant church,of course was catholic,but not only from 1945 onwards,"but allways."
At least it had not been demolished or transformed into a depot as it happened to numerous Polish churches in the lands that we lost after WWII.
Streckenbach wrote:On the graveyard in Heidebrink I was trying to find some sign of my grandparents searching for the tombstones,there was none.But tombstones with polish names and polish lenguage are starting from May 45 onwards.No polish subject died before 45 ?
I was living in a Polish town that had belonged to Germany till 1945 before I moved to the UK. There is a lot of German graves and they are kept in a very good condition. Some Germans visit them every year and some pay money to local Polish people to take care of the graves.
Streckenbach wrote: The whole polish history on pommern and Westprussia are a fake,in order to claim some rights on this area.
No comment. Improve your education first and we can discuss about it.
Streckenbach wrote: whatever your say and whatever you come up with,like maps ,census figures etc. it,s just fake and lies,like polish claims on Lithuinia and Galicia.
First of all I belong to the people who think Vilnius should not have belonged to Poland after WWI. However Our Great Leader, Józef Piłsudski, who considered himself a Lithuanian, had totally different thoughts.

Now please use some logic and make a proper conclusion - as the Poles managed to get 70+% of votes in Vilnius disctict in the last elections, although their number is significantly lower in the area than it used to be before WWII as many of them had been deported to Siberia, killed or expelled to Poland after WWII, are the provided numbers so fake?

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Re: Polish claims on Wilno/Vilnius

Post by Baltasar » 04 Oct 2009 16:41

Musashi wrote:
Streckenbach wrote:After the first WW,when the province Posen became polish[...]

No, Greater Poland province had been Polish very long time before it became German in 1793. Read the second article about the partitions of Poland and you will have a chance to be a teacher as I see something is wrong with German history education. We can argue about some matters, and there is nothing wrong in that, but some things are FACTS and are unarguable.
Actually, the German history education doesn't cover much of Polands history, save for WWII. However, I may have missed where Streckenbach hinted of his origin.

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Re: Polish claims on Wilno/Vilnius

Post by Musashi » 04 Oct 2009 21:52

Baltasar wrote:
Musashi wrote:
Streckenbach wrote:After the first WW,when the province Posen became polish[...]

No, Greater Poland province had been Polish very long time before it became German in 1793. Read the second article about the partitions of Poland and you will have a chance to be a teacher as I see something is wrong with German history education. We can argue about some matters, and there is nothing wrong in that, but some things are FACTS and are unarguable.
Actually, the German history education doesn't cover much of Polands history, save for WWII. However, I may have missed where Streckenbach hinted of his origin.
But it should cover Germany's history. Streckenbach should be taught "the province Posen" had not belonged to any German state before it was taken by Prussia in 1793 because that's an unarguable fact. The territory called "Westprussia" belonged to Poland for far longer period of time than it belonged to any German state.
It's bad when somebody (I mean Streckenbach) does not know history of his own country.

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Re: Polish claims on Wilno/Vilnius

Post by ToKu » 05 Oct 2009 06:32

According to Thorwald even Hitler told that it wouldn't be a shame to loose Posen, cause its never been a German city.

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Re: Polish claims on Wilno/Vilnius

Post by Baltasar » 05 Oct 2009 08:50

Musashi wrote:
Baltasar wrote:
Musashi wrote:
Streckenbach wrote:After the first WW,when the province Posen became polish[...]

No, Greater Poland province had been Polish very long time before it became German in 1793. Read the second article about the partitions of Poland and you will have a chance to be a teacher as I see something is wrong with German history education. We can argue about some matters, and there is nothing wrong in that, but some things are FACTS and are unarguable.
Actually, the German history education doesn't cover much of Polands history, save for WWII. However, I may have missed where Streckenbach hinted of his origin.
But it should cover Germany's history. Streckenbach should be taught "the province Posen" had not belonged to any German state before it was taken by Prussia in 1793 because that's an unarguable fact. The territory called "Westprussia" belonged to Poland for far longer period of time than it belonged to any German state.
It's bad when somebody (I mean Streckenbach) does not know history of his own country.
Well, you inevitably get mixed up with all those provinces if you start really early in history, ie the Frank Kingdom and later the Roman Empire of German nations. The provinces 'shared' with Poland are just one part of a larger puzzle.

And I still don't see how you come up with the idea that Streckenbach might have enjoyed the German education system, not giving a hint on his origin.

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Re: Polish claims on Wilno/Vilnius

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 05 Oct 2009 08:58

ToKu wrote:According to Thorwald even Hitler told that it wouldn't be a shame to loose Posen, cause its never been a German city.
Hitler was austrian, his point of view regarding history, especially on german one, rather 'funny' :wink:

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Re: Polish claims on Wilno/Vilnius

Post by Musashi » 05 Oct 2009 09:46

Baltasar wrote: Well, you inevitably get mixed up with all those provinces if you start really early in history, ie the Frank Kingdom and later the Roman Empire of German nations. The provinces 'shared' with Poland are just one part of a larger puzzle.
You have a map of the Frankish Empire and its borders are not even close to the present Polish borders. There are some Slavic tribes depended on the Empire but their borders reach the present Polish borders.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Frank ... 814-en.svg
Baltasar wrote: And I still don't see how you come up with the idea that Streckenbach might have enjoyed the German education system, not giving a hint on his origin.
It clearly appears from what he wrote:
Streckenbach wrote:My graetgrandfather was born at a little town near Bromberg,as a german,with german name and german nationality,so as well my grandfather and my father.After the first WW, when the province Posen became polish they all were kicked out,when they refused to take the polish nationality and went to Pommern/Cammin.After the second WW,they were kicked and beaten out again,because Pommern became polish up to the river Oder.When I came back to Cammin,about 10 tears ago, it was called Kamien-Pommerski and one could see that there never are any sign of german culture.
Maybe you are right that there is not any proof he was born in present Germany and his ancestors emigrated to the U.S.A., Gabon or Burkina Faso after WWII but it's very unlikely, isn't it? ;)

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Re: Polish claims on Wilno/Vilnius

Post by Baltasar » 05 Oct 2009 11:13

Musashi wrote:
Baltasar wrote: Well, you inevitably get mixed up with all those provinces if you start really early in history, ie the Frank Kingdom and later the Roman Empire of German nations. The provinces 'shared' with Poland are just one part of a larger puzzle.
You have a map of the Frankish Empire and its borders are not even close to the present Polish borders. There are some Slavic tribes depended on the Empire but their borders reach the present Polish borders.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Frank ... 814-en.svg

Not even close is probably a slight exaggeration, when you look at a hap of the Roman Empire of German nations: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... a.1600.svg

However, I do see your point I think ;)
Baltasar wrote: And I still don't see how you come up with the idea that Streckenbach might have enjoyed the German education system, not giving a hint on his origin.
It clearly appears from what he wrote:
Streckenbach wrote:My graetgrandfather was born at a little town near Bromberg,as a german,with german name and german nationality,so as well my grandfather and my father.After the first WW, when the province Posen became polish they all were kicked out,when they refused to take the polish nationality and went to Pommern/Cammin.After the second WW,they were kicked and beaten out again,because Pommern became polish up to the river Oder.When I came back to Cammin,about 10 tears ago, it was called Kamien-Pommerski and one could see that there never are any sign of german culture.
Maybe you are right that there is not any proof he was born in present Germany and his ancestors emigrated to the U.S.A., Gabon or Burkina Faso after WWII but it's very unlikely, isn't it? ;)
Well, you emigrated to Britain, so with any chance your children will be British instead of Polish, at least technically, even though they are of Polish origin, at least by 50% ;)

Point being: it'd depend on where the family moved on after they were 'kicked out' of Pommern.

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Re: Polish claims on Wilno/Vilnius

Post by Streckenbach » 06 Oct 2009 01:16

Hello everybody,
sorry, but yesterday Isend you a long posting with a lot of explinations,but today I can´t find it any more.I told you I was born when the new polish state ,after WW I,was about 20 years old and a lot facts about my life.Yes I been born near Cammin in a little,but beautifull Village of Dievenow now it's called Dzinow or some thing like this.I then stated that
indeed I have recieved very little history education,but since I am a selfmade man and an autodidact and so on, I was around a lot and I read a lot.Now I am living happely in Latin America and I wonder what kind of stories some of your people coming up with.
But I am confused,regarding the disappearing of my posting,because I do think you guys received it.You are mention
in your posting the Franko Empire and the holy Empire of the German Nations.Thats exactly what I wrote in my posting,
but not a sense that Poland use to be a part of , no, just saying that if you Musashi are claiming back the great Poland,which never will come back,so I got the same right to speak about the Empire of Carlo Magno,because it's also
over and out for ever.So I don't what are you talking about.I dont have a qualified historian background,like you
I don't write this propper english like you do, so what.I never know that I am in the middle of a bunch of plain experts
I speak what I know,what I remember and been born at this Place what you now call Pomorskie,so I know what I am talking about.Point, Out ,Finish and thank you for your nice comments

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Re: Polish claims on Wilno/Vilnius

Post by michael mills » 06 Oct 2009 05:15

Let's get back to Poles versus Lithuanians.

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Re: Polish claims on Wilno/Vilnius

Post by Peter H » 07 Oct 2009 07:10

Agree,lets stay on the topic as is....Wilno/Vilnius.

Lets also limit posts that come across as emotional laments and are outside this discussion.

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Re: Polish claims on Wilno/Vilnius

Post by Peter K » 10 Oct 2009 16:02

Kept, bravo for your post from 16 Sep 2009 09:35. Very wise post.
Jan-Hendrik wrote:
even Hitler told that it wouldn't be a shame to loose Posen, cause its never been a German city.
Hitler was austrian, his point of view regarding history, especially on german one, rather 'funny'
Out of over 50 most important historical monuments in Poznań, 5 are German (all Prussian, neo-renaissance).

Additionally during the Prussian regime in Poznań some of the most beautiful monuments were demolished. For example the classical palace built by Kazimierz Raczyński on the place of the ruins of medieval Przemysł II's castle.

Kazimierz Raczyński (1739 - 1824) - he also built e.g. Odwach and Biblioteka Raczyńskich (Raczyńscy Library):

Image
There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

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