Polish claims on Wilno/Vilnius

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Washington84
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Re: Polish claims on Wilno/Vilnius

Post by Washington84 » 29 May 2010 20:51

Many consider nationality as very old term. In fact as long as time was peaceful in Wilno people did not care about their nationality as we do now. Present nationality is linked to passports. Show me your passport and Itell you who you are. In difficult 1920s and 1939-1944 most of the people did not have passports (as US citizens today). Incoming Russians imposed in 1944-1948 on people to identify their nationality. Those who did not speak Polish certainly could not leave Wilno. My concern today is that 60 years after ethnic cleansing of Poles, Germans and extermination of Jews we see present authorities lead again to "progroms" of any non-Lithuanian people. Hate propaganda is visible in todays's Vilnius everywhere. This propaganda is a cheap response to no program how to recover from recession and how to keep Lithuanian (passport holders) from massive exodus from the country. During my first visit to Wilno near 6 month ago I was shocked to learn about minimum wage of 220 Euro per month and prices on Western European level. History is used for short term political gains.

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Re: Polish claims on Wilno/Vilnius

Post by eppanzer » 30 May 2010 10:01

If not irresponsible decision of Pilsudski, we would not have this hot question today. I know, the most polish do not agree with me, but it is my point of view. Vilnius is the capital of the Lithuania since 1323/1322. We will not find one truth with polish friends, so I try do not speak about Vilnius question as a rule.
Washington84 wrote: Present nationality is linked to passports.
We are not americans, both polish and lithuanian, and nationality it is not only passport for us. You can respect our senses or not, we just dont care about. My nationality it is not an obstruction to respect Poland and polish.
  • Hate propaganda is visible in todays's Vilnius everywhere. This propaganda is a cheap response to no program how to recover from recession and how to keep Lithuanian (passport holders) from massive exodus from the country. During my first visit to Wilno near 6 month ago I was shocked to learn about minimum wage of 220 Euro per month and prices on Western European level. History is used for short term political gains.
You should have to know what the f... thing the russian/communist/germany/nazi occupation is before You start talking. I believe the post-socialistic USA would look far more abjectly.

It is very interesting, where You have seen the "hate propaganda" in Vilnius. If some english speaking guys drink too much lithuanian brendy and bear and becom rude and arrogant, intolerance to them it is not a hate.

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Re: Polish claims on Wilno/Vilnius

Post by Halibutt » 31 May 2010 11:09

eppanzer wrote:It is very interesting, where You have seen the "hate propaganda" in Vilnius. If some english speaking guys drink too much lithuanian brendy and bear and becom rude and arrogant, intolerance to them it is not a hate.
Well, it's pretty everywhere. From limiting the liberties of the local Polish minority (in a theoretically democratic nation), through eradicating all traces of Polish language from historical monuments, to blaming Poland and Poles for all wrongs, be them historical or modern.
Cheers

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Re: Polish claims on Wilno/Vilnius

Post by Okyzm » 01 Jun 2010 13:39

If not irresponsible decision of Pilsudski, we would not have this hot question today. I know, the most polish do not agree with me, but it is my point of view. Vilnius is the capital of the Lithuania since 1323/1322. We will not find one truth with polish friends, so I try do not speak about Vilnius question as a rule
Claiming Vilnius was a pet idea of Pilsudski and his faction. Looking objectively the city was not worthy of the effort, settled with various minorities that proved troublesome for Poland, and didn't possess the needed industrial, mineral or financial assets that would allow Poland to be a developed country. The Poles living in Vilnius represented a particular specific group in Poland of kresowiacy-agrarian, anti-modernist, and expansionistic towards the East. Their beliefs and political ideas put Poland at odds with Eastern countries and populations, while giving nothing of value in return.
For the sake of Poland it would be better if Vilnius remained with its kresowiacy population outside of Polish territory. Even today the remnants of kresowiacy create problems and conflicts for Poland.

Far better for Poland would be to cede those territories to Lithuania and focus on regaining more core Polish territories in Silesia, Pomerania. If Poland for example would get Gdansk early on, it would save enormous amount of money and effort that was put into building of Gdynia, those assets could have been used to develop Polish industry instead years earlier.

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Re: Polish claims on Wilno/Vilnius

Post by henryk » 01 Jun 2010 19:10

Okyzm wrote:Claiming Vilnius was a pet idea of Pilsudski and his faction. Looking objectively the city was not worthy of the effort, settled with various minorities that proved troublesome for Poland, and didn't possess the needed industrial, mineral or financial assets that would allow Poland to be a developed country. The Poles living in Vilnius represented a particular specific group in Poland of kresowiacy-agrarian, anti-modernist, and expansionistic towards the East. Their beliefs and political ideas put Poland at odds with Eastern countries and populations, while giving nothing of value in return.
For the sake of Poland it would be better if Vilnius remained with its kresowiacy population outside of Polish territory. Even today the remnants of kresowiacy create problems and conflicts for Poland.

Far better for Poland would be to cede those territories to Lithuania and focus on regaining more core Polish territories in Silesia, Pomerania. If Poland for example would get Gdansk early on, it would save enormous amount of money and effort that was put into building of Gdynia, those assets could have been used to develop Polish industry instead years earlier.
Why is retaining for Poland of Wilno, a city with an overwhelmingly Polish population, a bad decision, and retaining for Poland of Danzig, a city with an overwhelmingly German population, a good decision? People matter!

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Re: Polish claims on Wilno/Vilnius

Post by Okyzm » 01 Jun 2010 19:27

Why is retaining for Poland of Wilno, a city with an overwhelmingly Polish population,
Actually Wilno wasn't overwhelmingly Polish, it had a significant Jewish population, sometimes counted as Poles. Plus they were Kresowiacy-a somewhat specific faction in Polish society.

a bad decision
Antagonising Lithuania, diverting resources to develop the city and defend it, focusing on East, gaining underdeveloped territories that needed investment, introducting kresowiacy to Polish politics(who were counterproductive to modernising Poland, and Polish politics)
and retaining for Poland of Danzig, a city with an overwhelmingly German population, a good decision?
Sea access, saving money used to build Gdynia. Germans would quickly emigrate anyway as in rest of Poland where they were.
People matter!
Realpolitics matter. Poland too often used romanticism and its beliefs of "people matter". With known results.

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Re: Polish claims on Wilno/Vilnius

Post by eppanzer » 02 Jun 2010 09:01

Halibutt wrote:
eppanzer wrote:It is very interesting, where You have seen the "hate propaganda" in Vilnius. If some english speaking guys drink too much lithuanian brendy and bear and becom rude and arrogant, intolerance to them it is not a hate.
Well, it's pretty everywhere. From limiting the liberties of the local Polish minority (in a theoretically democratic nation), through eradicating all traces of Polish language from historical monuments, to blaming Poland and Poles for all wrongs, be them historical or modern.
Cheers
Dear Halibutt, it is very sensitive subject to talk about irresponsibly. When you talk about limiting the liberties of the local Polish minority through eradicating all traces of Polish language from historical monuments and blaming Poland and Poles for all wrongs, You should be very informed, particular and talk about specific cases. I have a lot of the conversely proving evidences. But according to my full respect to Poland and Polish I do not like to extend this unfriendly dispute.
In my opinion, there is a totaly wrong place to discus today's problems, real or inventioned.

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Re: Polish claims on Wilno/Vilnius

Post by Halibutt » 05 Jun 2010 02:20

eppanzer wrote:Dear Halibutt, it is very sensitive subject to talk about irresponsibly. When you talk about limiting the liberties of the local Polish minority through eradicating all traces of Polish language from historical monuments and blaming Poland and Poles for all wrongs, You should be very informed, particular and talk about specific cases. I have a lot of the conversely proving evidences. But according to my full respect to Poland and Polish I do not like to extend this unfriendly dispute.
In my opinion, there is a totaly wrong place to discus today's problems, real or inventioned.
Well, my friend, you asked for it yourself. As to specific issues I'm specifically referring to Lithuanising the Polish minority's surnames in official documents (passports included) both against the will of the said people and in violation of a treaty of friendship signed with Poland some 15 years ago (needless to say Lithuanians in Poland enjoy the same rights as every other national minority in EU - except for Poles in Lithuania). I'm referring to the removal of old graves from the historical Rossa (Rasu) cemetery and their replacement with new graves, as well as replacing any texts in Polish in downtown Vilna with their Lithuanian translations, even if they are historical monuments. I'm talking of constantly bringing to court the journalists of the Kurier Wileński, the only Polish-language daily published in Lithuania. I'm referring to the fact that Poles in Lithuania by average earn less than their Lithuanian neighbours. I'm talking of stereotyping local Poles as redneck Sovietised people in popular culture. The list is very long, but I guess you're right discussing such issues here would be OT.
Okyzm wrote: Antagonising Lithuania, diverting resources to develop the city and defend it, focusing on East, gaining underdeveloped territories that needed investment, introducting kresowiacy to Polish politics(who were counterproductive to modernising Poland, and Polish politics)
Nope, nope and nope. First of all, the "kresowiacy" were mostly from what is now Belarus and Ukraine, where the majority of them had large estates. The region of Vilna was too densely populated for large estates to prosper. So nope, keeping Vilna in Poland did not add much influence to the kresowiacy, rather to the Jewish MPs in the Sejm, as Vilna was one of the most important centres of Jewish life in the region.

Secondly, of all the areas Poland fought for between 1918 and 1920 the region of Vilna was the most developed. Sure, it was nowhere near Silesia or Greater Poland, but still, it did not consume as many resources as, say, overpopulated Volhynia or Polesia, where not a single decent road existed prior to mid-1930s. Finally, with all my respect to our Lithuanian neighbours, inter-war Lithuania was not really a first-class world power to be reckoned with, so antagonising it or not was not really a factor I guess. Besides, Lithuania was already strongly against Poland, with Vilnius or without it. Especially that it was pretty much an aggressive state, having border disputes with all of its neighbours: Suwałki, Sejny, Vilna with Poland, Memel and parts of Prussia ("Little Lithuania") with Germany, and some towns along the borders with Latvia. On the other hand when the relations with Lithuania were finally normalised in 1938, Lithuanians behaved more than fair towards Poland in 1939 even though they were presented with a chance to join the war against us.
Cheers

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Re: Polish claims on Wilno/Vilnius

Post by eppanzer » 06 Jun 2010 10:30

Halibutt wrote: As to specific issues I'm specifically referring to Lithuanising the Polish minority's surnames in official documents (passports included) both against the will of the said people and in violation of a treaty of friendship signed with Poland some 15 years ago (needless to say Lithuanians in Poland enjoy the same rights as every other national minority in EU - except for Poles in Lithuania). I'm referring to the removal of old graves from the historical Rossa (Rasu) cemetery and their replacement with new graves, as well as replacing any texts in Polish in downtown Vilna with their Lithuanian translations, even if they are historical monuments. I'm talking of constantly bringing to court the journalists of the Kurier Wileński, the only Polish-language daily published in Lithuania. I'm referring to the fact that Poles in Lithuania by average earn less than their Lithuanian neighbours. I'm talking of stereotyping local Poles as redneck Sovietised people in popular culture. The list is very long, but I guess you're right discussing such issues here would be OT.
As You like to said a part of tre event which one is "good for You". You wrote:
bringing to court the journalists of the Kurier Wileński
. Acctually, the Kurier Wileński made an appellation to the decision of the Lithuanian Commission on Ethics of Journalists and Publishers

Read more:
Controversy regarding article of Krzysztof Buchowski

In November 2006, "Kurier Wileński" printed article of Polish historian from Białystok University Krzysztof Buchowski - "Jak Polak widział Litwina w okresie międzywojennym" (pl. "How did Pole perceive Lithuanian in between World Wars"), which was read on Polish-Lithuanian historical conference "Stosunki polsko-litewskie na przestrzeni wieków" (pl. "Lithuanian-Polish relations through the ages") on Vilnius University.

Information about the article was passed on to Lithuanian Commission on Ethics of Journalists and Publishers ( lt. "Lietuvos žurnalistų ir leidėjų etikos komisija"), which, on March 19, 2007 made verdict, that "Kurier Wileński" acted unethically and, in fact, did commit crime of sparking nationality-based conflicts. No representant from the daily was invited to the assembly of the Commission, which made the verdict.

The daily made an appellation to the decision, and on the second reading on April 2, 2007, on which dailies editor-in-chief Robert Mickiewicz and publication's redactor Jan Sienkiewicz were present, the Commission yet again stated that "Kurier Wileński" acted unethically and did spark nationality-based conflicts. Robert Mickiewicz announced, that he will take Commission's decision to court.

I believe, You also couldn't mention a real event and a real monument with replaced any texts in Polish in downtown Vilnius. Could You?
Everybody who is interested in the dispute, have to read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rossa_Cemetery
The Lithuanian Parlament made a decision about writting surnames in official documents. This decision could be appealed to the Lithunian Constitutional or EU court. It is much better way than to whimper on the internet.

Every kindergarten and school is under the municipality authority. Do You know, how many municipalities around the Vilnius has Polish majority in the municipality Council - the higest authority?
Of course were are a lot of problems, and most of them are inspired by irresponsible politians, both Lithuanian and Polish. But only one good way to deal is the legal way, well-meant talking and discusing. The Lithuania is the meber of EU and EU law is obligatory. The human rights are under international society protection.
Talking about me, I love Poland, I have a lot Polish friends. And I hate a unfair, an anonymously inspiring, talking the useful half a truth. I don't mention lawlessness activity of the some members of the Polish minority in Lithuania, because this has no sense. People have to talk and to solve a problem, instead of inspiring a hate and distrust.

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Re: Polish claims on Wilno/Vilnius

Post by Okyzm » 06 Jun 2010 12:43

Halibutt-"Poles" from Wilno are very much considered kresowiacy, and rightly so. Their beliefs, views are identical to the kresowiack attitude-arrogance towars Lithuanians, irrational view that Poles are "civilising the East", belief that Polonization makes Lithuanian lands Polish, confrontational attitude towards minorities and so on.
As to Vilnius being the richest of poores-regions-it was still poor and underdeveloped, needed investment that could be used elsewhere.

Lithuania maybe was so small, but big enough to threaten East Prussia, if it had been an ally of Poland in 1939 one can only wonder how September Campaign would go on without the northern German forces being a threat to Warsaw. But of course it wasn't-just one of many contributions of the "kresowiaks" to Poland(others are wars with Russia, Ukrainian massacres, bad relations with Belarus and so on).
To paraphase Churchill-never has a group harmed so much Poland and given it so little.

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Re: Polish claims on Wilno/Vilnius

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 06 Jun 2010 14:08

Okyzm wrote:
Far better for Po[land would be to cede those territories to Lithuania and focus on regaining more core Polish territories in Silesia, Pomerania. If Poland for example would get Gdansk early on, it would save enormous amount of money and effort that was put into building of Gdynia, those assets could have been used to develop Polish industry instead years earlier.
Just a pity that ther main population of these 'Core polish territories' was non-polish, wasn't it? :wink:

What about Pommern oder Danzig? Both territories contained next-to-none polish inhabitants...but it seems the fascism of occuring new territories by ethnic cleansing seems to have still defenders in Poland :wink:

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Re: Polish claims on Wilno/Vilnius

Post by Okyzm » 06 Jun 2010 14:15

Just a pity that ther main population of these 'Core polish territories' was non-polish, wasn't it?
Despite heavy Germanization in the apartheid system of German Empire Polish population was still present.
.but it seems the fascism of occuring new territories by ethnic cleansing seems to have still defenders in Poland :wink:
Hmm? There was never any ethnic cleansing of Germans in those territories-there was perfectly legal and peacefull population exchange overseen by Allied powers who stopped German attempt to exterminate whole nations. Germanized Polish territories have seen transfer of German population most of which was constituted of NSDAP supporters(party which had genocide as its main goal) to German territories. Of course much of Germanised slavic areas still remain under German control.

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Re: Polish claims on Wilno/Vilnius

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 06 Jun 2010 14:30

Peacefull....? Aha, everything clear :wink:

You belong to those ones who pray the "liberation" of Kolberg despite there was no polish inhabitatant at all :roll:

Funny rephrashing of good olde polish cummunist post-war propaganda...astonishing that there are still guys out there feeding these dead fishes :lol:

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Re: Polish claims on Wilno/Vilnius

Post by Okyzm » 06 Jun 2010 14:40

Peacefull....? Aha, everything clear
Yes, very peacefull compared to the previous 6 years of Nazi German made genocide in Europe.
u belong to those ones who pray the "liberation" of Kolberg despite there was no polish inhabitatant at all :roll:
Actually despite heavy Germanization Poles remained in Kołobrzeg and in 1893 build their own school and church in 1895.

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Re: Polish claims on Wilno/Vilnius

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 06 Jun 2010 14:47

Yeah, evil german empire even its slightest minorities allowed their cultural freedom (plus free elections)....in Pommern there were in 1939 96% germans...and a few Kaschuben...and next-to-none poles. Effect of "germanisation"..? or why do we see when we look into the archives and find, for the years from the beginning of cultural paper work till 1939 nearly NO documents on polish language there? Why do we see in these cities, even despite the effort of Red Army in destroying each&everything, nothing of polish influence before 1945?

SO hard to get real and acknowledge even after 65 years, that the so called "regained territories" got only 'polish" by an ethnic cleansing towards 95% of its population, an effort even tee Nazis did not manage anywhere??

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