Taking German eastern lands was a goal of pre-war Poland

[cortodanzigese]

[Split from 'Homeland' for Germans expelled from modern Poland?]

Here's the word from prewar leader Józef Piłsudski about border change:

"We are aware that war between Poland and Germany cannot be avoided. We must
systematically and energetically prepare ourselves for this war. The present
generation will see that a new victory at Grunwald will be inscribed in the pages of
history. But we shall fight this Grunwald in the suburbs of Berlin. Our ideal is to
round Poland off with frontiers on the Oder in the West and the Neisse in Lausatia,
and to reincorporate Prussia, from the Pregel to the Spree. In this war no prisoners
will be taken, there will be no room for humanitarian feelings. We shall surprise the
whole world in our war with Germany."
Mocarstwowiec, Polish newspaper, issue 3 from 1930, i.e. before Hitler became
Chancellor. "Mocarstwowiec" was the voice of the Polish "Liga Mocarstwowa". Quoted
in: Bertram de Colonna, Poland from the Inside, p. 90.

Note these words are from 1930, long before Hitler started the War first and even took over Reich...

The destruction of Germany and taking german eastern lands were long standing goal of polish politics.

[Artur Szulc]

The destruction of Germany and taking german eastern lands were long standing goal of polish politics.

Well, Pilsudski also said again and again that Poland can never be the attacker. And that Poland did not seek war with its big neighbours, which means Germany and the Soviet Union.

That Pilsudski sought to attack Germany in the begining for the 30´s and that he proposed this the french are based on anecdotal accounts and is not supported by any archivedocuments.

So, words are one thing and actions something else. Pilsudski said many thing.

Best regards,

Chili

[Piotr Kapuscinski]

The destruction of Germany and taking german eastern lands were long standing goal of polish politics.

This article denies this claim. The idea of preventive war against Nazi Germany (nipping Nazism in the bud) was born in Piłsudski's mind after Hitler came to power, but was quickly abandoned because France was not supporting it.

From: http://niezalezneforum.pl/index.php?topic=3288.0

Koszmar wojny z Niemcami - Nightmare of war against Germany:

"W październiku 1931 roku w Bukareszcie Marszałek którejś nocy zwierzył się oficerowi, pełniącemu przy nim służbę, że tyle niebezpieczeństw grozi Polsce od zewnątrz i wewnątrz, że być może za 10 lat Polska nie będzie istnieć. W 1932 roku polski charge d’affaires w Kairze Mieczysław Maliński, który co dzień rozmawiał z przebywającym tam na urlopie Piłsudskim, wspominał, że był on „głęboko niespokojny, głęboko pesymistyczny, że widział przyszłość w bardzo czarnych kolorach. I było z tych półsłówek jasne, że zawsze upatrywał niebezpieczeństwa tylko z Rosji, że ciągle myślał jakby się z Niemcami dogadać, jakby te stosunki załagodzić, natomiast absolutnie nie wierzył, by jakiś modus vivendi z Rosją był możliwy” (patrz: W. A. Zbyszewski, Nieznane testimonium o Piłsudskim, „Zeszyty Historyczne”, Paryż 1963, z. 4, s. 51.).
Piłsudski zdając sobie sprawę, że wszystkie jego wysiłki zarówno wobec Republiki Weimarskiej jak i III Rzeszy, podejmowane w celu poprawy stosunków polsko-niemieckich pozostają bez skutków, zdecydował się na całkowitą zmianę frontu. Jeśli III Rzesza zmierzała do rozgrywki siłowej, to należało bezzwłocznie, nie tracąc czasu – póki dysponowano ogromną przewagą sił – zniszczyć hitleryzm w zarodku. Dlatego dwukrotnie – na wiosnę i jesienią 1933 roku proponował Francji przeprowadzenie wspólnymi siłami - wojny prewencyjnej. I Francja dwukrotnie odmówiła. Później podobnie postąpiła Czechosłowacja, która choć zagrożona przez imperializm niemiecki, ale ufna w poparcie Francji i Anglii, nie zgodziła się na wspólną z Polakami akcję antyniemiecką, mogącą odwrócić fatalny rozwój sytuacji.
Hitler jednak poważnie zaniepokojony możliwością wojny prewencyjnej zaproponował Piłsudskiemu zawarcie na dziesięć lat paktu o nieagresji. Piłsudski się zgodził, mimo że oceniał, iż ten pakt zapewni nam spokój ze strony Niemiec nie na dziesięć lat, lecz tylko, co najwyżej cztery. Po zawarciu paktu Marszałek zaprosił prezydenta Mościckiego oraz byłych premierów. Wyjaśniając przyczyny zawarcia paktu, oświadczył, że układ może zapewnić Polsce cztery lata dobrych stosunków z Niemcami, tzn. pokój do 1938 roku. Za więcej lat Komendant nie ręczył.
W ówczesnej coraz trudniejszej sytuacji zewnętrznej Polski – między dwoma sąsiadami nieustannie powiększającymi swe siły zbrojne – Piłsudski uważał każdy rok pokoju z Niemcami za cenny, ponieważ zapewniał istnienie Polsce. Do końca życia będąc przekonanym, że wojna z Niemcami w istniejących warunkach oznaczać będzie koniec państwa polskiego, bo Francja nie przyjdzie nam z pomocą, a Stalin skorzysta z okazji, aby pomścić rok 1920 i odebrać nam kresy wschodnie. „Wojna z Niemcami była koszmarem, który dręczył mego męża nieustannie” – zanotowała w swym dzienniku pani marszałkowa Piłsudska (patrz: Aleksandra Piłsudska, Wspomnienia, Warszawa 1989).
Po śmierci Piłsudskiego odsunięty od władzy przez Mościckiego i Śmigłego-Rydza, w dniu 2 kwietnia 1939 najwierniejszy i najbliższy współpracownik polityczny Marszałka – Walery Sławek, pozbawił się życia z browninga, którego jeszcze używał w akcjach bojowych w latach 1906-1908. Samobójstwo popełnił o godzinie 20.45 to jest tej samej, o której zakończył życie ukochany Komendant. Przez lata doszukiwano się różnych przyczyn tego samobójstwa. Najbardziej trafną wydaje się jednak opinia Bogusława Miedzińskiego, który dostrzegł związek między śmiercią Sławka a zbliżającą się wojną.
Miedziński zwrócił uwagę na fakt, że Sławek popełnił samobójstwo po udzieleniu Polsce gwarancji przez rząd brytyjski, „(...) W chwili wyjazdu Becka do Londynu, celem nie tylko przyjęcia, ale rozwinięcia tych gwarancji w sojusz dwustronny, co wiadomo Hitler potraktował jako casus belli. (...) Widział nadciągającą losową chwilę dla Polski i nie miał, nie widział, nie czuł dla siebie miejsca” (patrz: B. Miedziński, Ze wspomnień o Walerym Sławku, „Zeszyty Historyczne”, Paryż 1973, z. 23, s. 153).

Mocarstwowiec, Polish newspaper,

"Mocarstwowiec" or rather "Myśl Mocarstwowa"?

Here is the article about geopolitical conceptions of Adolf Bocheński, one of the main activists of "Myśl Mocarstwowa":

http://www.omp.org.pl/index.php?module= ... pageid=738

Wikipedia about Adolf Bocheński:

http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Maria_Boche%C5%84ski

He was an author of many books, including "Między Niemcami a Rosją" ("Between Germany and Russia") and "Tendencje samobójcze narodu polskiego" ("Suicidal tendencies of the Polish nation").

[Marcus]

A post by jola containing several personal comments was removed following previous warnings.
If you disagree with claims made by other posters provide facts to prove them wrong instead of resorting to personal remarks.

/Marcus

[jola]

Let me rephrase then. The OP made a statement based on what? One quote, from one person. How does that make Poland's long standing goal to destroy Germany. The burden of proof is on him to provide some suporting facts first. There is nothing to refute yet. So far, it is an unsuported statement amounting to propaganda.

The destruction of Germany and taking german eastern lands were long standing goal of polish politics.

[LWD]

Even if the title is correct is this a war crime?

[ToKu]

jola wrote:

Let me rephrase then. The OP made a statement based on what? One quote, from one person. How does that make Poland's long standing goal to destroy Germany. The burden of proof is on him to provide some suporting facts first. There is nothing to refute yet. So far, it is an unsuported statement amounting to propaganda.

Don't expect too much, cortodanzigese was asked twice in the nearby topic:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=154930

what was the sources on which his opinion that

The Poles expelled from Belarus and Ukraine are also suing for land

was based. It is a simle question and the poster is still quite active on the forum. Yet no answer was provided so far.

EDIT: typing mistakes

[Artur Szulc]

Jola and ToKu is right.

cortodanzigese should start to provide evidence and not just throw out statements.

Or this thread has no meaning.

Best regards,

Chili

[cortodanzigese]

First of all, this wasn't intended to be a thread, the quotation above was put out of another discussion.

The quotation was intended to serve as a proof that polish nationalism of 1930s wasn't just a thing from the margins.

The retaking of german eastern lands as a goal - in modern polish political thought - had a long tradition. Actually I was surprised to found such radical statement was made by Pilsudski himself - who was rather viewed as friend of Germany and called "a german spy" by his political adversaries.

The bulk of polish political and public life was occupied in interwar years by Endecja. And what Endecja thought about Germany is well known. Check Roman Dmowski's works.

Pilsudski was a specialist in achieving power, but Dmowski was architect of polish political thought and he inspired many other intellectuals.

So I think, that this is out of discussion that reshaping borders was a long goal of polish politics, I am just surprised that Pilsudski also shared that point of view.

Although - he said many things and admitted many times, that saying whatever's neccessary at the moment, was always easy to him.

[David Thompson]

cortodanzigese -- When asked for a source for your claims, you replied:

Check Roman Dmowski's works.

That kind of response is inadequate here:

If a poster raises a question about the events, other posters may answer the question with evidence. If a poster stops asking questions and begins to express a point of view, he then becomes an advocate for that viewpoint. When a person becomes an advocate, he has the burden of providing evidence for his point of view. If he has no evidence, or doesn't provide it when asked, it is reasonable for the reader to conclude that his opinion or viewpoint is uninformed and may fairly be discounted or rejected.

Also, undocumented claims undercut the research purposes of this section of the forum. Consequently, it is required that proof be posted along with a claim. The main reason is that proof, evidence, facts, etc. improve the quality of discussions and information. A second reason is that inflammatory, groundless posts and threads attack, and do not promote, the scholarly purpose of this section of the forum. For more on this subject, see the announcement at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 676#990676

This requirement applies to each specific claim. In the past, some posters have attempted to evade the proof requirement by resort to the following tactics, none of which are acceptable here:

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Noncomplying posts are subject to deletion after warning.

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When you post a claim, reference it. If you can't provide a specific source or sources, don't post the claim. Consider this your pre-deletion warning.

[cortodanzigese]

So why you have cut this post out of another discussion? This was already a quote from source, serving another discussion. Please, next time, just delete the post, or at least ask me if I want to start another thread...

But OK:

Dmowski - Exemplary Source

[David Thompson]

cortodanzigese -- You gave a link to a 279-page book, without specifying the section or passage which backs up your claim. We run this forum for the benefit of our readers, who come here to find intelligent discussions based on sourced information about historical subjects. The readers don't come here to engage in idle scavanger hunts to check out an unsourced claim you or some other poster made.

We put the burden on the poster to back his/her claims up with a source, at the time the claim is made. I'll repeat the warning passage, since you apparently didn't read it closely. The bold italics emphasize the pertinent portion of the rules:

This requirement applies to each specific claim. In the past, some posters have attempted to evade the proof requirement by resort to the following tactics, none of which are acceptable here:

A general reference to a website, or a book without page references; citations or links to racist websites; generalized citations to book reviews; and citations to unsourced articles.

Noncomplying posts are subject to deletion after warning.

H&WC Section Rules
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=53962

There's no reason for several hundred readers or more to have to scour a whole book to discover a vague reference when you are the claimant and should have properly sourced it at the time you made your claim. We put the burden on you to comply with the forum and section rules.

You also wrote:

So why you have cut this post out of another discussion? This was already a quote from source, serving another discussion. Please, next time, just delete the post, or at least ask me if I want to start another thread...

This has nothing to do with the sourcing rule. The forum management routinely splits topics when there is a change of subjects within a thread:

Although there are occasionally exceptions, the forum management tries to keep a thread on a single topic. This makes it easier for readers to follow, and for researchers to subsequently locate, the discussions. If a poster would like to see further discussion of off-topic matters, please raise the subject in a pre-existing thread on that topic or, if there are no pre-existing threads, on a separate thread.

Non-complying posts are subject to deletion after warning.

H&WC Section Rules
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[bf109 emil]

Even the title of this thread makes me wonder

Taking German eastern lands was a goal of pre-war Poland

If this really was a goal, what steps did Poland set out to accomplish this?
What was the plan to achieve this or make happen?
Where any steps taken to have this happen?
Perhaps instead of using the word goal a better fit would have been; wish/desire/dream

[Jan-Hendrik]

If this really was a goal, what steps did Poland set out to accomplish this?

Just after 2nd Repuplic was founded it started to try to annex german territories, f.e. by sending troops camoflaged as "insurgents" to Oberschlesien to start riots there...ore to ask France for "preemptive" occupation of Germany (when Germany with its 100,000 men Army would have nothing defend itself) etc. That 2nd Republic was rather an aggressive, protofacistic neighbour nearly all Neighbours had to experience...

Jan-Hendrik

[ToKu]

Could You please be more specific and define timeframe (just after 2nd Republic was founded) and the factors on which distinction between Polish and German terretories was to be based on in given timeframe?

Best Regards