Taking German eastern lands was a goal of pre-war Poland

Discussions on all aspects of Poland during the Second Polish Republic and the Second World War. Hosted by Piotr Kapuscinski.
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michael mills
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Re: Taking German eastern lands was a goal of pre-war Poland

#76

Post by michael mills » 08 Aug 2009, 05:50

The result? Hitler absolutely refused to give any post-occupation recognition to the Polish nation whatsoever. The entire area occupied by Germany in 1939, and much that had then fallen by mutual agreement to the USSR at the same time, had been annexed to the Reich by 1941. Uniquely for an occupied country in Axis Europe, the Germans didn't even allow the Poles a notional puppet political administration. Two million Poles were displaced by German settlers during the war as the start of a 20-year plan to extinguish the Polish nation on its own soil.
Sis,

Once again you have been let down by your lack of knowledge of the subject you are writing about.

All the available evidence indicates that in August 1939, Hitler's intention was to maintain the existence of a rump Polish state after both Germany and the Soviet Union had taken the parts of it that they wanted. The secret annex to the German-Soviet Non-Aggression Pact of 23 August 1939, which defined the demarcation line between the proposed German and Soviet spheres of influence in former Polish territory, specifically left open the question of the continued existence of a Polish political entity, that question to be decided later.

After the Soviet Union invaded Poland, Stalin insisted that no Polish rump state should continue to exist, and that germany and Poland should both annex the Polish territory that they occupied under the revised division specified in the secret annex to the Borders and friendship Treaty of 28 September 1939. In accordance with that proposal, the Soviet Union did in fact annex all the Polish territory it occupied under the terms of the 28 Septemver agreement. In fact, some historians think that Stalin proposed to move the dividing line to the east, to run along the Bug River rather than the Vistula, in order to avoid annexing ethnic Polish territory.

However, Germany did not annex all the Polish territory assigned to its sphere of influence. The central territory that it did not occupy, consisting essentially of most of former Russian Poland, less a strip of annexed territory lying along the 1914 border, plus the western part of former Austrian Galicia, was organised as a "General Government of the Occupied Polish Territories", that is, not as German territory but as territory under German occupation.

The name "General Government" is significant. That was the name given to Russian Poland after it was occupied by German and Austrian troops in 1915. There had been two "General Governments", one centred on Warsaw under German occupation, and the other centred on Lublin, under Austrian occupation. The joint German-Austrian occupation led to the creation of a quasi-independent Polish state under German and Austrian auspices in 1916. It is likely that the choice of the name "General Government" by the German occupiers in 1939 presaged an intention to create a similar satellite Polish state similar to that created in 1916, consisting of most of the territory of the 1916 state plus West Galicia.

When Governor-General Frank arrived to take up his position in German-occupied Poland, he was still talking in terms of a future Polish political entity, a "Staatlichkeit". That idea was however abandoned in the summer of 1940.

It is also untrue that the German occupiers did not allow a notional puppet political administration in Poland. The reason why such a puppet administration was not set up is that the Germans could not find any Polish political leaders willing to collaborate with them. In fact, the German tried to recruit Wincenty Witos, the Polish peasant leader, as the leader of a puppet government, but he refused. Witos had been selected by the Germans as he had been the leader of the largest Polish political party, was very popular among the mass of the Polish population, and had also been a stauch opponent of the pre-war Polish Government, having been inprisoned and sent into exile in Czechoslovaki between 1933 and 1939.

There were other pro-German Poles, such as Studnicki, who declared themselves willing to serve in a pro-German administration, but they were too politically isolated and too marginalised to be of any use to the Germans. In every country occupied by or allied with Germany, the Germans followed a policy of turning down marginal pro-fascist types in favour of established right-wing politicians, eg Petain in France, Tiso in Slovakia, Antonescu in Romania, Horthy in Hungary, Hacha and Syrovy in Bohemia-Moravia, King Christian in Denmark. The Germans tried the same approach in occupied Poland,but could not induce any established political figures to collaborate.

Furthermore, the Germans had entered into an agreement with the Soviet Union to suppress any anti-Soviet activity in the German Zone of Occupation. Therefore, they could not put anti-Soviet politicians in charge of a puppet administration.

After Germany invaded the Soviet Union in 1941, the German occupiers were able to recruit a large number of ethnic Polish collaborators in the former Polish territories annexed by the Soviet Union in 1939, particularly in Belorussia.

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bf109 emil
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Re: Taking German eastern lands was a goal of pre-war Poland

#77

Post by bf109 emil » 08 Aug 2009, 07:58

michael you said
When Governor-General Frank arrived to take up his position in German-occupied Poland, he was still talking in terms of a future Polish political entity, a "Staatlichkeit". That idea was however abandoned in the summer of 1940.
does or did Frank say why this was abandoned or what took place to change his thinking?

Thanks


Sid Guttridge
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Re: Taking German eastern lands was a goal of pre-war Poland

#78

Post by Sid Guttridge » 08 Aug 2009, 13:24

Hi Chili,

On a military level Hitler had to keep forces back to man the Westwall against the French. He did not have to do the same opposite Poland. Thus the two cases are not directly comparable militarily.

No, I do not "mean that the Czech ability too defend their country against German aggression was serioulsy damaged beacuse they held a "better part of a corps" in the Tesin area watching the Poles". However, subtract your inserted word "seriously" and you get my drift.

To what diplomatic exchanges do you refer? We already know the two countries could concoct a non-aggression pact and I see no reason in principle why they could not go further. However, given Hitler's desire for lebensraum contiguous with the Reich, his inherently expedient nature and consequent unreliability I am not at all convinced that there was any more chance of Nazi Germany keeping by the terms of an alliance than there was of it keeping to the terms of the non-agression pact it illegally and unilaterally rejected in 1939.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: Taking German eastern lands was a goal of pre-war Poland

#79

Post by michael mills » 08 Aug 2009, 13:42

[quote]To what diplomatic exchanges do you refer? We already know the two countries could concoct a non-aggression pact and I see no reason in principle why they could not go further. However, given Hitler's desire for lebensraum contiguous with the Reich, his inherently expedient nature and consequent unreliability I am not at all convinced that there was any more chance of Nazi Germany keeping by the terms of an alliance than there was of it keeping to the terms of the non-agression pact it illegally and unilaterally rejected in 1939.

[quote]

Sid,

If you are claiming that Hitler had a long-term aim of seizing Polish territory, ie that he had that aim prior to 1939, it is incumbent on you to provide evidence of such an aim.

For example, speeches by Hitler, or written works by Hitler, either public or private, dating from before 1939, in which he revealed an aim of seizing Polish territory, Can you, for example, quote any passages in Mein Kampf in which he talked of sezing Polish territory? Can you find any references to Poland in Mein Kampf at all?

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Re: Taking German eastern lands was a goal of pre-war Poland

#80

Post by Sid Guttridge » 08 Aug 2009, 13:54

Hi Michael,

My reply to your earlier post has just disappeared. It will have to wait to Monday.

But to briefly address your last post.

If what you say is true, then one has to wonder why Hitler "suddenly" developed a hankering for Polish territory in 1939?

Was not the reversal of the Versailles terms part of his creed? Did these not include the loss of pre-1914 German Imperial territory to the reborn Poland?

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: Taking German eastern lands was a goal of pre-war Poland

#81

Post by michael mills » 08 Aug 2009, 14:40

If what you say is true, then one has to wonder why Hitler "suddenly" developed a hankering for Polish territory in 1939?

Was not the reversal of the Versailles terms part of his creed? Did these not include the loss of pre-1914 German Imperial territory to the reborn Poland?
Not good enough by a long shot, Sid. Let's see your evidence that Hitler had a long-term plan to seize Polish territory.

Of course, parts of the German Establishmnent, particularly the officer corps and the large Prussian land-owners, throughout the inter-war period promoted the idea of revising the German-Polish border and regaining the lands lost under the Versailles Treaty. But Hitler, being an Austrian and not part of the Prussian Establishment, did not support that aim; he was prepared to abandon German claims to its former territory in the East, and to leave the large German minority in those territories under Polish rule, in order to gain Polish friendship and support. In the same way, he was prepared to abandon claims to the South Tirol with its ethnic German population, in order to gain the friendship of Italy; or to leave ethnic German minorities under the rule of Hungary, Romania and Yugoslavia,for the sake of good relations with those countries.

Once Poland definitively allied itself with Britain against Germany, in August 1939, Hitler changed course, abandoning his former aim of seeking alliance with Poland, and adopting the aims of the Prussian Establishment, which were to regain West Prussia, Posnania and Upper Silesia, and fully germanise those provinces.

However, the fact is that prior to August 1939, or a few months before that, there is no hint of any plan by Hitler to seize Polish territory and settle Germans on it.

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Re: Taking German eastern lands was a goal of pre-war Poland

#82

Post by Artur Szulc » 08 Aug 2009, 15:18

Sid
On a military level Hitler had to keep forces back to man the Westwall against the French. He did not have to do the same opposite Poland. Thus the two cases are not directly comparable militarily.
I did not think i military terms when I wrote that France and Great Britain where assets to Hitler in that same time.

I meant on a political level; they did in fact make it possible for Hitler to gain territories during the 1930´s. In that sense France and Great Britain where important assets for Hitler.

When it comes to Hitlers plans regarding Poland, well, he was a opportunist. If the Poles did not want to be a part of the Antikomintern then he had no use for Poland. Poland recevied offers from Berlin to join that anti-Soviet pact, but Warsaw refused. And that pissed Hitler off.

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Re: Taking German eastern lands was a goal of pre-war Poland

#83

Post by Boby » 08 Aug 2009, 17:00

If the Poles did not want to be a part of the Antikomintern then he had no use for Poland.
This is an unsourced claim.

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Re: Taking German eastern lands was a goal of pre-war Poland

#84

Post by bf109 emil » 08 Aug 2009, 22:11

michael you asked
If you are claiming that Hitler had a long-term aim of seizing Polish territory, ie that he had that aim prior to 1939, it is incumbent on you to provide evidence of such an aim.
sid you asked
If what you say is true, then one has to wonder why Hitler "suddenly" developed a hankering for Polish territory in 1939?
I haven't as yet sourced info on Hitler view towards Poland prior to 1939, i did source a meeting Hitler had "NOTES on the Conference in the Reichskanzlei on 5 Nov 37"

and present in this meeting being
"Present: The Fuhrer and Reich Chancellor
The Reichsminister for War , Generalfeldmarschall von BLOMBERG
The C-in-C Army, Generaloberst Freiherr von FRITSCH
The C-in-C Navy, Generaladmiral Dr. h.c. RAEDER
The C-in-C Luftwaffe, Generaloberst GÖRING
The Reichsminister for Foreign Affairs Freiherr von NEURATH
Oberst HOSZBACH"

the jist of this meeting was views on England, France, how Hitler thoughts of Czechoslovakia and how it might be sacrifised and easy to obtain or, a potential future war with France how Czechoslovakia might become a threat... and England in regards to some points...the only items in this which might inkling towards Poland was Hitler wish it would remain neutral with a war on France, and how he thought Poland was not a threat but maybe in off topic, but a correct guess as to Czechoslovakia in 1937 i will post here"The Fuhrer believes personally that in all probability ENGLAND and
perhaps aLSO FRANCE have allready silently wr i t ten off CZECHOSLOVAKIA", and that they have got used to the idea that this question would one day be cleaned up by GERMANY."


regarding Poland in 1937 after a Czechoslovakian take over"Tho measure and speed of our act i on would decide Poland's attitude .
Poland will have little inclination to enter the war against a victorious Germany, withh Russia in its rear .


What Hitler saw after taking Czechoslovakia, and how Poland might stay neutral, yet a threat to territories listed in this statement could come at a later date by Poland"Once CZ3CHOSLOVrlKL. is conquered - and the mutual frontier, GERMANY-HUNGARY
is obtained - then a neutral ,attitude by POLANDD in a German-French conflict could more easily be relied upon . Our agreements with POLAND remain valid only as long as GERMANY's strength remains unshakable should GERMANY have any setbacks then an attack by POLAND against, EAST PRUSSIA, perhaps also against, POMERANIA, and SILESIA , must be taken into account. "


i know this isn't the fruit nor the plum which was requested, but likewise it might have some revaluation, how ever a tad towards the questions asked by Michael and Sid...I will do my best to try and source or fail in finding some hard facts Michael wants to see and those Sid claimed, either/or the above quotes come from document 386-PS and if anyone would like to read the full 8 pages on Hitlers views in 1937, not only towards Poland, but the Mediterranean, England, France, Czechoslovakia it will be no problem to post, but i didn't as the majority of this document doesn't relate to Poland, nor is solid fact, what it is happens to be a document conveying Hitlers thoughts, premonitions, views in 1937 as opposed to an outline or plan which i think Michael and Sid where seeking

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Re: Taking German eastern lands was a goal of pre-war Poland

#85

Post by michael mills » 09 Aug 2009, 05:45

As is obvious, the so-called Hossbach Protocol does not document any intention by Hitler to attack Poland.

What is does document is a fear by Hitler that if Germany became bogged down in a war in the West, against France for example, Poland would take the opportunity to stab Germany in the back (despite the 1934 non-aggression declaration) by invading East Prussia, and perhaps Pomerania and Silesia.

That shows that Hitler was aware of the nationalist elements in Poland that were laying claim to German eastern territory. He was also aware that since the death of Pilsudski in 1935, the Polish Government was gradually moving closer to the anti-German nationalist elements, and that it could not be trusted.

It is entirely possible that if Germany had not invaded Poland, but become involved in a war with France over Czechoslovakia say, then Poland would have taken the opportunity to seize German territory. After all, as Churchill wrote of the Poles after the war, "they were the bravest of the brave led by the vilest of the vile".

It is certainly a fact that in August 1939, Hitler feared that if he did not knock out Poland with a lightning invasion before the end of the campaigning season that year, ie in September, then the Polish Army would invade East Prussia late in the autumn, when the weather would have made it very difficult for Germany to take effective counter-measures.

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Re: Taking German eastern lands was a goal of pre-war Poland

#86

Post by bf109 emil » 09 Aug 2009, 06:19

I am still seeking what Michael asked for earlier and to clear any doubts as to whether an order or issue, here is the full 8 pages of Hitlers meeting so the brunt or text of what he said can be read and can or be argued as to his interpretaion or gist of his beliefs or fearshttp://library2.lawschool.cornell.edu/d ... V_8_03.pdf

The earliest source i could find and the drawing up of Case White or "Fall Weiss" is april 3 1939 and here is the 6 page order as drawn up by Keitel and signed by Hitlerhttp://library2.lawschool.cornell.edu/d ... _02_16.pdf

implementing Fall Weiss on june 22 1939 order or directivehttp://library2.lawschool.cornell.edu/d ... _02_12.pdf

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Re: Taking German eastern lands was a goal of pre-war Poland

#87

Post by michael mills » 09 Aug 2009, 07:27

Note that Hitler's directive of 11 April 1939 contains the following political background:
4 . Annexe I I contains the directives for ',Fall We i s s "

In para 1 ) "Political Hypotheses and Aims" it is stated that quarrels with Poland should be avoided. Should Poland however, change her present policy which is based on the same principle and adopt a threatening attitude towards Germany, a "final settlement" will be necessary notwithstanding the pact with Poland. 'l'he aim is then to destroy Polish military strength and to create in the East a situation which satisfies the requirements of defence. The Free State of Danzig will be incorporated into Germany at the outbreak of the conflict at the latest . Policy aims at limiting the war to Poland , and this is considered possible in view of the internal crisis in France and British restraint as a result of this . Should Russia intervene, this would imply Poland's destruction by Bolshevism. German military exigencies will determine the attitude of the Baltic States. Hungary not a certain ally . Italy 's attitude is determined by the Berlin-Rome Axis.
It is obvious from the above that this directive by Hitler dated 11 April 1939 does not document a definite decision to invade Poland. Rather it sets out the steps to be taken if Poland changes its "present policy", ie the friendship with Germany based on the declaration of non-aggression of January 1934, and adopts a threatening attitude toward Germany, ie join an alliance encircling Germany. In that case, war is seen as inevitable, and something that must be prepared for.

However, as of the date of this directive, war with Poland is still seen as a contingency, something that will depend on Poland's future actions. In fact, the ruling assumption is that quarrels with Poland are to be avoided. Germany's policy is clearly not one of fomenting a quarrel with Poland.

Furthermore, Hitler states that if Poland adopts a threatening attitude toward Germany, thereby creating a war situation, the German aim will be to destroy Polish military strength and secure Germany's defence in the East. There is no hint of an intention to destroy Poland as a political entity; indeed the only threat to Poland's existence is seen as coming from Bolshevism.

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Re: Taking German eastern lands was a goal of pre-war Poland

#88

Post by Artur Szulc » 09 Aug 2009, 10:36

Michael mills wrote:
It is certainly a fact that in August 1939, Hitler feared that if he did not knock out Poland with a lightning invasion before the end of the campaigning season that year, ie in September, then the Polish Army would invade East Prussia late in the autumn, when the weather would have made it very difficult for Germany to take effective counter-measures.
Did Hitler really fear this? Based on what intelligence sources?
However, as of the date of this directive, war with Poland is still seen as a contingency, something that will depend on Poland's future actions. In fact, the ruling assumption is that quarrels with Poland are to be avoided. Germany's policy is clearly not one of fomenting a quarrel with Poland.
Then explain this to us: that if Hitler even at the last moment wanted to avoid war with Poland why then did the German invasion and occupation policies from the very beginning take such brutal forms? I mean, if Hitler only wanted to wipe out Polands military ability to strike then why did Berlin feel the need to humilitate Polish citizens? And slaughter hundreds of thousands of Polish citizens? Your logic does not make any sense.

I belive that from 1933 and up to summer of 1938 the relations between Germany and Poland were stabile. But after Munich the political configuration in Europe changed and Germany no longer needed a "friendly" Poland. Although Germany still seeked Polish co-operation and made the offer to Warsaw to join the Anticominternpact, which the Poles refused. The war did not become a reality beacuse of Danzig or the corridor, that is a documented fact.

-------------

And still, no one have been able to prove that taking German eastern lands was a goal of pre-war Poland. So this threads title is nonsense, still.

Cheers,

Chili

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Re: Taking German eastern lands was a goal of pre-war Poland

#89

Post by Boby » 09 Aug 2009, 12:52

Count Ciano asked by what time the question of Danzig will have to be settled, in the Führer's opinion. The Führer replied that this question will have to be settled one way or the other by the end of August. The Führer replied to Ciano's question as to how the Führer imagined the solution, that Poland will have to give up Danzig politically, whereby her economic interests will of course be preserved, and that she will have to contribute by her general attitude to a release of the tension. It is doubtful whether Poland will be willing to do so; for hitherto she had rejected the German proposals. The Führer personally made these proposals to Beck on the occasion of his visit to Obersalzberg. They were very favorable for Poland. In exchange for the political return of Danzig to Germany, with complete preservation of Polish economic interests and the establishment of a connection between East Prussia and the Reich, Germany conceded a border guarantee, a 25-year friendship pact, and Polish participation in influence on Slovakia. At that time Beck acknowledged the proposal with the remark that he wanted to examine it. The sharp refusal was only the consequence of English intervention. Poland's aims can, moreover, be seen clearly in her press. All of East Prussia should be occupied, they want to advance to Berlin, etc. In the long run it is unbearable for a big power to tolerate such a hostile neighbor at a distance of only 150 km from its capital. The Führer is therefore determined to use the opportunity of the next political provocation, in the form of an ultimatum, brutal mistreatment of Germans, an attempt to starve out Danzig, or something similar, to attack Poland within 48 hours and to solve the problem in this way. This would mean a considerable strengthening of the Axis, just as an Italian liquidation of Yugoslavia would mean a considerable increase of power for the Axis.
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/1871-ps.asp

Similar words were said at the end of August by the chauvinist Lipski, in a conversation with Dahlerus. Dahlerus later explain this in a conference with Göring and Hitler on 26 September.

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Re: Taking German eastern lands was a goal of pre-war Poland

#90

Post by Artur Szulc » 09 Aug 2009, 14:34

Boby,

How did Hitler come to the conclusion that Poland wanted to occupy all of Eastern Prussia and advance to Berlin?

Do you not think that Hitler, in august 1939, felt the need to describe Poland as an potential aggressor? I think we should apply some critical thinking here.
Similar words were said at the end of August by the chauvinist Lipski, in a conversation with Dahlerus. Dahlerus later explain this in a conference with Göring and Hitler on 26 September.
What exactly did "chauvinist" Lipski say to Dahlerus?

Best regards,

Chili

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