If Poland had become Germany's ally rather than its enemy

Discussions on all aspects of Poland during the Second Polish Republic and the Second World War. Hosted by Piotr Kapuscinski.
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bolchevik
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Re: If Poland had become Germany's ally rather than its enem

#61

Post by bolchevik » 31 May 2011, 15:43

Domen121 wrote: Poland also signed a non-agression pact with the USSR in 1932 (for 3 years) and prolonged it in 1934 until 1945:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet%E2% ... ssion_Pact

The Soviet Union violated that pact on 17 September 1939.

Beck's policy was to "appease" both neighbours of Poland - Germany and the USSR. Not just Germany.

So Beck's policy was the policy of appeasement of both but also the policy of no alliances with either.
Poland was more hostile to USSR than to Germany. Pilsudski remembered the war of 1920. Pilsudski had common views with Hitler: both hated Society of Nations, they praised bilaterals and simples negociations and treaties, both hated Czech and dreamed about sharing it. Soviets offered several negociations and treaties during 20's but Poland was always hostile. It was only the economic crisis and Danzig's rebellion (1932) that pushed Poland to finally accept a deal with Soviets.
In his book Beck put the fault on France, GB, Italy, USSR,Czech... if we trust him nor Germany nor Poland were in fault... which is highly hypocritical point of view.

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Re: If Poland had become Germany's ally rather than its enem

#62

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 01 Jun 2011, 12:16

Pilsudski was dead since 1935.
Pilsudski had common views with Hitler: both hated Society of Nations,
Nope. Pilsudski planned to invade Hitler in 1934 together with France:
(...) While his foreign minister General Beck was relieved by Hitler’s apparent accommodation of Polish independence with the signing of special pacts in 1934, Pilsudski offered France with a joint invasion of Germany in early 1935, once it was apparent that Germany was rebuilding its army in violation of the Treaty of Versailles. By this time, France had lost the sort of fire that was still in Pilsudski’s belly. Hindsight proves that Pilsudski could have been victorious and ended the possibility of World War II more than four years before it began.

Jozef Klemens Pilsudski died on 12 May 1935.
BTW - Pilsudski always had leftist views. In some period his views were even close to communist:

http://www.oocities.org/veldes1/pilsudski.html
He studied at the University of Kharkow and then joined a revolutionary and anti-Tsar organization known as “People’s Will.” In 1887, Pilsudski was arrested by the authorities and exiled to Siberia for five years. His brother, Bronislaw, was found to be in a revolutionary plot, and was an associate of Lenin’s soon-to-be executed brother.

After his release, Pilsudski involved himself in the socialist movement and by 1892 he founded the Polish Socialist Party. In 1900, he was arrested again for being the editor of an underground newspaper called “Robotnik.” At the seemingly escape-proof prison, Pilsudski pretended to be insane in order to be transferred to a mental hospital in St. Petersburg.
"Robotnik" = "Worker".

What is "Society of Nations" ???
Soviets offered several negociations and treaties during 20's but Poland was always hostile.
I guess Poland and the Soviet Union signed the treaty of Riga in 1921.
Last edited by Piotr Kapuscinski on 01 Jun 2011, 12:26, edited 1 time in total.


Sid Guttridge
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Re: If Poland had become Germany's ally rather than its enem

#63

Post by Sid Guttridge » 01 Jun 2011, 12:23

Hi Domen,

He presumably means the "League of Nations".

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Re: If Poland had become Germany's ally rather than its enem

#64

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 01 Jun 2011, 12:45

Pilsudski did not "hate" the League of Nations.

He simply did not believe in its efficiency.

And he was right because the League of Nations did not prevent Germany from rebuilding its army and starting WW2.

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Re: If Poland had become Germany's ally rather than its enem

#65

Post by bolchevik » 01 Jun 2011, 13:55

Domen121 wrote: I guess Poland and the Soviet Union signed the treaty of Riga in 1921.
It was the peace treaty...
Nope. Pilsudski planned to invade Hitler in 1934 together with France:
There is still doubts about it.
BTW - Pilsudski always had leftist views. In some period his views were even close to communist:
Yes he was part of Komintern :lol: ! He just put in jail several communists during his reign... just read Beck's memoirs : they hated Czech and USSR more than Germany, they were really stupid.
Domen121 wrote:Pilsudski did not "hate" the League of Nations.

He simply did not believe in its efficiency.
Danzig's problema etc. he hated it, thinking it was not efficient didnt make him loving it :D .

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Re: If Poland had become Germany's ally rather than its enem

#66

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 03 Jun 2011, 03:15

Pilsudski had leftist views and he was a socialist. However, he did not support bolshevism (communism)*. Below he expresses his views that Communism is a sickness for Socialism and has nothing to do with true Socialism:

*Pilsudski used "bolshevism" as synonym of "communism".

In the interview for "Journal de Génève" on 18 May 1919 Pilsudski said:

"We are very far from bolshevism. Seeing devastation caused by the communist system, we do not understand how can there be socialists in Europe, who regard it favourably. Bolshevik system is even a negation of the socialist idea. There is nothing more disgraceful for socialism, than bolshevism. In northern territories, which are just being liberated by us, the hatred of peasants and peaceful inhabitants towards bolsheviks has something terrible in it."

From the interview for Times on 8 October 1919:

"Bolshevism is a purely Russian disease. (...) It doesn't deeply root in countries, which are not genuinely Russian. (...) The primary rule of the Russian bolshevism is class revenge. The common ideal of a socialist is the universal equality of certain rights; it is not what the Russian bolshevik wants. He wants to overthrow previous order of things. His keynote is the domination of proletariat and oppression of those, under the oppression of whom it previously remained and the place of whom it took. Bolshevism is the heritage of the old Russian social system*, in which subjects were treated like trash by their lords. Bolshevism maybe has some prospects in Central Russia, where that system had been present, but not in Baltic provinces."

*It's about Russian version of feudalism I guess.

From the interview for "Times" on 9 February 1920:

"European nations more remote from the hearth of bolshevism might still believe in loveliness of the system introduced by Lenin. But we, who judge this system at close quarters, already have a formed opinion about it. We are terrified by the horrible situation created in Russia by bolshevism. (...) Whereas Poland will never agree to voluntarily go to death by attempting to taste communism as well. Now, when we are free, we are too attached to life to expose ourselves to the loss of it for empty delusions."

==============================================

Marian Zdziechowski (born 1861, died 1938) wrote:

"Since the beginning, since the moment when we gained our independence, extreme leftist groups were disregarding the bolshevik threat, claiming that Russian imperialism is our real enemy, as if bolshevism was not even more greedy and imperialistic. Groups calling themselves nationalist were following this example of extreme leftists, it seems that they were even outmatching them."

Jacek Kloczkowski and Filip Musial in their book write:

"(...) Yet at dawn of the reborn Poland anti-communism turned out to be one of the foundations of her cultural and political identity. (...) The answer for the question: what was anti-communism in II Polish Republic, is very short - raison d'etat."

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Re: If Poland had become Germany's ally rather than its enem

#67

Post by bolchevik » 03 Jun 2011, 09:57

Thank you for posting these quotes which show deeply how Piklsudski hated much more SU than Germany, and that he was all you want excepted socialist despite you say "he had socialist views" (he would kill you for have said this).

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Re: If Poland had become Germany's ally rather than its enem

#68

Post by michael mills » 03 Jun 2011, 10:11

Jacek Kloczkowski and Filip Musial in their book write:

"(...) Yet at dawn of the reborn Poland anti-communism turned out to be one of the foundations of her cultural and political identity. (...) The answer for the question: what was anti-communism in II Polish Republic, is very short - raison d'etat."
If anti-Communism was the "raison d'etat" of Poland, then there was a strong basis for an alliance with a Germany ruled by Hitler, since anti-Communism was Hitler's main political ideology, from 1919 onward. The expression of Hitler's anti-Communism in the international sphere was the Anti-Comintern Pact, which he invited Poland to join in 1938.

Anybody who studies the development of Hitler's ideology from 1919 onward will clearly see that his anti-Communism was far stronger than any anti-Polish sentiments that may have existed among some of his followers, so there was no danger to Poland from a Germany ruled by Hitler if it allied with it against the Soviet Union.

In the event, Poland did not enter into the anti-Communist, anti-Soviet alliance offered by Hitler, because of the Polish Government's weakness in the face of the hysterical anti-Germanism of the Polish Opposition, in particular of Endecja. The centrist and rightist parts of the Polish Opposition, the Peasant Party and Endecja, were indeed anti-Communist, but they were more anti-German than anti-Russian, and were therefore adamantly opposed to any alliance with Germany, even if it were based on anti-Communism.

As a result, Poland was smashed, and many of its people perished.

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Re: If Poland had become Germany's ally rather than its enem

#69

Post by ljadw » 03 Jun 2011, 11:23

a question would be :why should Poland have become an ally of Germany ? I see therefore no benefits .

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Re: If Poland had become Germany's ally rather than its enem

#70

Post by Sid Guttridge » 03 Jun 2011, 12:06

Hi Michael,

Unfortunately, Hitler was not simply motivated by anti-Bolshevism. He was also motivated by a desire to reverse the Treaty of Versailles, to overthrow the alliance systems that guaranteed it and for lebensraum beyond Germany's 1914 borders in the east. All these had negative implications for inter-war Poland.

Hitler's treatment of Poland as he pursued these after September 1939 indicates clearly how negative - he wiped out the Polish state and began to displace its people. The Poles were the only people for whom Hitler recognized no national political identity once he had conquered their state. The Poles had a special place in his world view - and it turned out to be a very unhealthy one for them.

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Re: If Poland had become Germany's ally rather than its enem

#71

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 03 Jun 2011, 13:05

Thank you for posting these quotes which show deeply how Piklsudski hated much more SU than Germany
Not really. He hated Nazi Germany after 1933 as well. But in 1918 - 1920 he had no reason to hate Germany.

And as I already explained, Polish policy was to appease both Germany and Russia. Not to provoke any of them.
why should Poland have become an ally of Germany ? I see therefore no benefits .
I see no any benefits as well. The only benefit would be war, which Poland wanted to avoid.

Joseph Beck's "Policy of Balance" was to keep peaceful relations with both (!) Germany and Russia.

Peaceful relations but not alliance (not "very friendly" relations), since Poland saw its main ally in France. And Poland probably realized that signing an alliance with Russia means war against Germany, while signing an alliance with Germany means war against Russia - while Poland wanted to avoid any war and appease both neighbours.

This Beck's policy of balance was the continuation of policy of balance of Pilsudski, who even said:

"Keep balancing * as long as it is possible and when it is no longer possible, set the world on fire!".

* It is about balancing between Germany and Russia. :idea:

Which means exactly what later Joseph Beck said when he refused to accept German demands:

"We in Poland do not know the concept of peace at any price."

Both maxims mean that Poland wanted peace, but wanted freedom & independence more than peace.
(he would kill you for have said this).
No he was a peaceful and great man, he was not like those of Hitler's and Stalin's kind.
since anti-Communism was Hitler's main political ideology, from 1919 onward.
The difference is that Polish anti-communism was "defensive".

While Hitler's anti-communism was "extremely offensive".

It means: Poland only didn't want communism to spread to the West (including mainly Poland itself).

While Hitler not only wanted to prevent communism from spreading, he also wanted to destroy it completely.

On the other hand, for Poland it was completely indifferent if there was communism in Russia or not. Pilsudski even said that "(...) Communism maybe has some prospects in Central Russia, but not in Baltic provinces (...)".

This quotation clearly indicates, that he only wanted to prevent Communism from spreading into Poland and Baltic region (Lithuania, Latvia, Finland, etc.), maybe also former Polish "Kresy" (i.e. Western Belarus & Ukraine).

But at the same time Pilsudski had nothing against existence of Communism in Central Russia. He even saw some prospects for Communism in that region, since local population was already accustomed to harsh rules.

Russian people were constantly under harsh rules since they were conquered by Mongols in 13th century.

Later Tsarist regime was not better than Mongol rules. So bolshevism would not make much difference for Russians, Pilsudski even acknowledged that maybe it was better for them (but only for them!) than Tsarist regime.

And Pilsudski knew Tsarist regime well, because as I wrote, he fought against it. Just like Lenin.
The expression of Hitler's anti-Communism in the international sphere was the Anti-Comintern Pact, which he invited Poland to join in 1938.
Yes - and this pact was aimed at destroying Communist Russia.

While Poland didn't want to destroy it. Poland didn't want any further wars against Russia.

It already fought one devastating war against Soviets in 1919 - 1921, which was barely won by Poland.

Poland only wanted Communism to stay away from its eastern border, which was secured by Poland in the war of 1919 - 1920 and confirmed in the treaty of Riga in 1921. Later Poland signed non-aggression pact with Russia.

Poland also established Defensive Plan "East" against Russia, built a line of strong fortifications along its eastern border and signed several defensive alliances (inluding the one with Romania) in case of Soviet aggression.

So Poland was well prepared to repulse a possible Soviet invasion. Polish fortifications in the East were strong.

But there was no any desire to conduct any offensive war against Russia in Poland. Poland wanted peace.

This is why Poland refused to join the Anti-Comintern Pact. It simply had no interest in doing so.

Staying neutral and keeping peace as long as possible was Poland's most important goal.
Last edited by Piotr Kapuscinski on 03 Jun 2011, 13:57, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: If Poland had become Germany's ally rather than its enem

#72

Post by Tim Smith » 03 Jun 2011, 13:57

ljadw wrote:a question would be :why should Poland have become an ally of Germany ? I see therefore no benefits .
With hindsight, the benefit would be to postpone the destruction of the pre-war Polish regime for 6 years, from 1939 to 1945. Provided the Polish leaders were prepared to sell their souls to the devil and commit the terrible crimes of joining the Axis, fighting for Hitler, voluntarily giving up Polish land to Germany, and actively assisting the Nazis in arranging the murder of millions of Polish Jews.

Instead of resisting Hitler in 1939 and thus ensuring that their firing squad would speak German, the Polish leaders could have cooperated with Hitler and thus ensured that their firing squad would speak Russian. So the big question was: Which language would you like your firing squad to speak?

The Polish leaders made the right decision. However, we mustn't forget that it would have been easy for them to get it wrong, assume that the Nazi-Soviet Pact made Germany invincible, and conclude that there was no point in fighting.

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Re: If Poland had become Germany's ally rather than its enem

#73

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 03 Jun 2011, 14:01

First of all, Poland simply didn't want war against either the Soviets or the Germans.

The benefit of "postponing the destruction" was something that could not be known by anyone in 1939.

It also wasn't known that Nazi Germany was going to commit terrible crimes in the following years.

So that was definitely not an obstacle for joining the German side back then.

=========================================

BTW - Polish operational plan "Wschód" ("East"):

Image

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Re: If Poland had become Germany's ally rather than its enem

#74

Post by Steve » 03 Jun 2011, 14:52

majorT

Yes it is speculation because Poland decided not to make the concessions Hitler wanted. It is not speculation how he treated the counties that went along with his wishes. The Poles decided in the words of Mussolini that it was better to live one day as a lion than a hundred years as sheep. The other east European countries decided it was better to be a live sheep than a dead lion. Poland would in my opinion have followed the same road as Hungary if it had conceded in 1939.

If Poland had accepted Hitler’s terms early in 1939 there was no need for a pact with the USSR as Hitler would not have been threatened in the west. The small eastern European states would automatically have looked to shelter under the German umbrella. Hitler’s breaking of the Munich agreement never made sense and is possibly his first major irrational decision. Because of this the British gave a guarantee that tipped Hitler over the edge and he decided further negotiations with Poland were useless as they probably were.

The British gave a guarantee to a country they thought should have made concessions that they could not defend and was expected to fall in six months if war came. The Poles went to war with an ex friend that on a rational analysis of the situation was bound to destroy them. Germany decided to risk an all out European war because it could not have an extra territorial road and railway. At the end of 1939 the only winner appeared to be Stalin.

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Re: If Poland had become Germany's ally rather than its enem

#75

Post by Sid Guttridge » 03 Jun 2011, 19:12

Hi Steve,

I tend to agree that Hitler's occupation of Bohemia-Moravia in defiance of the Munich Agreement was his first major error.

However, it was not the first time he had broken international agreements and/or norms of behaviour. The failed coup in Austria in 1934 (in which the Austrian president was assassinated), the Rhineland remilitarization in 1936, his interference in the Spanish Civil War over 1936-39, the breaching of Washington Treaty naval tonnage limits, the occupation of Austria in 1938 in defiance of his own guarantees gibven after the 1934 debacle, the interference in Slovakia over the winter of 1938-39, the encouragement of Ruthenian dissidence over the same period, etc., all show a consistent pattern of only adhering to those international agreements and norms that suited his purpose.

The Bohemia-Moravia occupation in March 1939 only differed in that he broke his own word to third-party major powers and went beyond any programme designed to rectify the Treaty of Versailles. But by then he already had a long record of untrustworthiness that he added to between March and September 1939 by occupying Memel, militarizing Danzig, unilaterally abrogating the naval agreement with Britain, illegally unilaterally tearing up the 1934 10-year non-agression agreement with Poland, etc., etc..

Shelter under the "German umbrella"? Do you know what happened to those states that "sheltered under the German umbrella"? Germany took over most of their major industries and they lost much of their independence. Germany sponsored the dismemberment of Romania in 1940.When Hungary tried to declare its capital an Open City to avoid bombing in 1944, Germany occupied the country. Slovakia was due for Germanization.

The Poles went to war with an "ex-friend"? "Went to war"? I thought Germany attacked them.

This "ex-friend" would presumably be Germany, which had helped extinguish the Polish state entirely a hundred and fifty years earlier, and from whose grasp the country had to be wrestled in 1918?

Why did Germany need an "extra-territorial road and railway"? The Polish railways were moving German traffic to and from East Prussia to the very moment war broke out. (Indeed, one of the first warlike German acts was to try to pass an armoured train onto the Dirschau Bridge under cover of a normal German goods train.) And if the autobahn to East Prussia was so vital, why wasn't it built once the Corridor had been captured? The British ran an entire global empire across the sea. Was Germany really incapable of sustaining the vastly smaller East Prussia across a short stretch of Baltic? Of course not.

The only reason Stalin appeared to be a winner at the end of 1939 was because he had advanced into Poland, the Baltic States and Finland under the cover of an agreement he had reached with...... Hitler!

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