Loss of 2x 24cm K.3 in September 1939

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schwarzermai
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Loss of 2x 24cm K.3 in September 1939

#1

Post by schwarzermai » 23 Dec 2013, 20:28

hello

the s.Art.Abt. (mot.) I./84 starts the campaign against poland with 4x 24cm K.3
( i think only 4 of this guns exist in September 1939)
until end of september they lost 2 of them
i'm searching for informations about this losses - were it total losses or just short repairs/long term repairs....

Uwe
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Re: Loss of 2x 24cm K.3 in September 1939

#2

Post by schwarzermai » 05 May 2014, 19:39

hello

nobody?

the losses were between 1.9.1939 - 24.9.1939
at AOK 10

Uwe
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Re: Loss of 2x 24cm K.3 in September 1939

#3

Post by Manuferey » 06 May 2014, 00:02

Uwe,

The 'Kriegsgliederung des Feldheeres" of January 15, 1940 indicates 2 batteries of two K3 each for I./84, thus a total of 4 guns again. In November 1940, the numbers have increased to 3 batteries of two K3 each, thus 6 guns.

Separately, lexikon-der-wehrmacht gives the following production rate:
- zero in 1939
- three in 1940

So, it looks like that the two guns "lost" in Poland were sent for repair since there were again 4 guns in I./84 in early 1940 but no production in 1939, unless 2 new guns were delivered in 1940 before January 15.

(Source: http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Waf ... chutze.htm)

Emmanuel

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Re: Loss of 2x 24cm K.3 in September 1939

#4

Post by schwarzermai » 06 May 2014, 06:13

Hello Emmanuel

no- here are the gliederung of I./84 in January 1940 only 2x K3 at 1./84 all other 24cm K. are the czech ones - the two repaired guns came back in April 1940

Image

also 3 new guns in 1940 is wrong - only 2 new guns were produced in summer 1940

i would like to know what was happen with the 2x K3 before they gave their first shots at war and went in action.

thanks uwe
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Re: Loss of 2x 24cm K.3 in September 1939

#5

Post by Manuferey » 07 May 2014, 02:40

Uwe,

Here is the excerpt of the KGdFH dated January 15, 1940 I was talking about. I understand from you then that all the notes made in pencil on it are dated at least from April 1940. I’ll correct my notes.

Image

Emmanuel

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Re: Loss of 2x 24cm K.3 in September 1939

#6

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 20 May 2014, 21:34

On Polish forum dws.org.pl we have discussed the loss of these guns:

http://www.dws.org.pl/viewtopic.php?f=7 ... a&start=50

But so far we have also not managed to figure out what exactly happened.

And here a thread about German railway guns, but also no info about this loss:

http://www.dws.org.pl/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=129181
There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

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Re: Loss of 2x 24cm K.3 in September 1939

#7

Post by schwarzermai » 21 May 2014, 10:48

hello Peter, thanks for your help - i try to translate the text but it didnt work .... German railway guns in 1939?

Uwe
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Re: Loss of 2x 24cm K.3 in September 1939

#8

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 24 May 2014, 03:53

You can use this free Google Website Translation tool (of course the results are far from perfect):

http://free-website-translation.com/?pl

Here is the result of translating those two links I posted above:

http://translate.google.com/translate?s ... tart%3D100

http://translate.google.com/translate?s ... t%3D129181
German railway guns in 1939?
Yes, railway guns and various super heavy guns in 1939 were also discussed in both threads.

As well as ammunition consumption and where they were used.
There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

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Re: Loss of 2x 24cm K.3 in September 1939

#9

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 01 Jun 2014, 00:45

The 'Kriegsgliederung des Feldheeres" of January 15, 1940 indicates 2 batteries of two K3 each for I./84, thus a total of 4 guns again. In November 1940, the numbers have increased to 3 batteries of two K3 each, thus 6 guns.

Separately, lexikon-der-wehrmacht gives the following production rate:
- zero in 1939
- three in 1940

So, it looks like that the two guns "lost" in Poland were sent for repair since there were again 4 guns in I./84 in early 1940 but no production in 1939, unless 2 new guns were delivered in 1940 before January 15.
the s.Art.Abt. (mot.) I./84 starts the campaign against poland with 4x 24cm K.3
(i think only 4 of this guns exist in September 1939)
Niehorster in his "Order of Battle - Non-Divisional Heavy Artillery Battalions (motorized)" gives the following for I./84:

On 01.09.1939:

1 - 24cm K3
2 - 24cm K3
3 - (24cm K3)

So question is - what do these brackets in case of 3rd battery mean ???

Only 1st and 2nd batteries had two 24cm K3 each, while 3rd battery had no guns (but it was supposed to get them).

So in my opinion it means, that 1st and 2nd batteries had them, while 24cm K3 for 3rd battery were probably enroute.

Thus probably 6 of 24cm K3 existed on 01.09.1939, but only 4 were in units, 2 more being enroute (?) to their units.

And in such case it appears, that the loss of 2 x 24cm K3 in Poland was real - i.e. they were not repaired later.

Production of 24cm K3 amounted to 3 pieces in 1940, as was already mentioned above.

================================================

BTW - those guns (24cm K3) actually fired ammunition during the Polish Campaign.

But sources differ when it comes to exact amount of ammunition they fired.

Probably because data on ammo consumption in some of those sources is incomplete.
There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

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Re: Loss of 2x 24cm K.3 in September 1939

#10

Post by schwarzermai » 01 Jun 2014, 10:12

hello Peter

what do these brackets in case of 3rd battery mean ???

these barackets means, that mobplan shows the I./84 with 3 batteries to each 2x K3 - and off course so all plans for "Fall Weiß" shows I./84 with 3 batteries to each 2x K3 too - 3./84 were created Oct 12th 1938 but just as Personaleinheit - no K3 avaible for 3./84.
and in September 1939 there is I./84 with 3 batteries but only 4x K3 avaible at this time and 2 from 4 lost. (in long time repairable condition)

about ammunition:
(please use primary sources only, not Hahn)

i know these documents
"Munitionsverbrauch der Ostarmeen 1.9.-24.9.1939": K3 = 0
(in this period of time 2x K3 lost)
"Munitionsverbrauch der Ostarmeen 1.9.-1.10.1939": K3 = 12
(so the 12 rounds were fired between 25.9.-1.10.39)
and a list about "Munitionsverbrauch 1.9.-31.10.1939" K3 = 144

so my theory is: 12x K3 rounds were fired but 144 shells were used - so 132 shells were lost at a munitions explosion in an accident, raid or something like these and damaged 2x K3 before they fired their first rounds

Uwe
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Re: Loss of 2x 24cm K.3 in September 1939

#11

Post by NagaSadow » 02 Jun 2014, 07:57

Hello!

I can add two entries from General Halder's war diary:

10.09.1939
(...)
ObdH: Schwere Artillerie:
- Abteilung bei 73. Div..-(tschechische)) Abt. Zeitz - 1 Bttr. (K 3) - K 5, 30,5cm Mörser Lublinitz.
(...)

14.01.1940
Op.Abt.
(...)
2. K 3 und K 5: Becker behauptet, es liege an der Kälte und an der Stahlbearbeitung. (Nur bestverarbeiteter Feinstahl möglich!
(...)

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Re: Loss of 2x 24cm K.3 in September 1939

#12

Post by schwarzermai » 02 Jun 2014, 11:48

Danke Nakasadow, wenn man nur wüßte, was mit dem Eintrag 10.9.39 gemeint ist...

if i only knew what Halder has meant with the note on Sep 10th 1939

uwe
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Re: Loss of 2x 24cm K.3 in September 1939

#13

Post by NagaSadow » 02 Jun 2014, 13:14

Yes, his diary is full of interesting comments, sadly many of them without any context.
But I found another one:
02.04.1940:
Brand-v. Greiffenberg:
a) Verteilung der neuzugeführten Mrs. und 15 cm K. Batterien.
b) 2 K3 wieder verwendungsfähig; Einsatz bei Aachen im Rahmen vorhandener Abteilung.
(...)

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Re: Loss of 2x 24cm K.3 in September 1939

#14

Post by NagaSadow » 02 Jun 2014, 13:31

24.04.1940
(...)
Buhle [A/N: Oberst Walter Buhle]: Organisationsfragen: Ausstattung der Landwehrdiv. mit Artillerie, die von Gebirgsdiv. frei wird. Panzer III und tschech. Panzer. - Geringer Wert K 3, K 5 K 12. - UOffz.-Vorschulen und UOffz.-Schulen.

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Re: Loss of 2x 24cm K.3 in September 1939

#15

Post by schwarzermai » 02 Jun 2014, 15:17

hello NagaSadow und thanks!! Great find!!
Uwe
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