Churchill's Betrayal of Poland

[Gorque]

The Chiefs of Staff didn't believe that the Germans at the time had the forces necessary to force the Maginot Line.

In May 1940 they also did not have the forces necessary to do that - they simply bypassed the Maginot Line through Belgium, though.

Were the Chiefs of Staff too stupid to even consider such a possibility? Not predicting that was as idiotic as Appeasement policies.

"We will build a fortified line and hope that they attack it and bleed to death, that's what chivalrious enemies should do".

While the Maginot Line and the Allied defense of the Low Countries is outside the realm of this discussion, I think that a re-reading on your part of the Allied reaction to the German invasion of Holland will suffice in answering your question.

[Piotr Kapuscinski]

The defeat and occupation of Poland would result in Germany and the Soviet Union facing off against each other along the former Polish border with Soviet claims on former Polish lands being a major detriment to relations between the 2 nations. The General Staff concluded that Poland’s value was not in her ability to defeat or resist the German Army, but in being able to tie-down German troops in a prolonged occupation, thereby denying the German Army their manpower for use in the West.

That's exactly what I wrote - Poles were supposed to be cannon fodder buying time for the Western Allies. As for those Franco-British hopes that Stalin and Hitler were going to fight each other - Stalin hoped for the same regarding Germany and the Western Allies. He wanted "capitalists" to fight each other and to weaken each other, so that later he could come as a "liberator" and spread Communism.

As you wrote above:

Poland's defeat was part of French and British plans. And they did not plan to save Poland from occupation.

So question is - why did they promise Poland to launch a general offensive after 15 days ???

[Gorque]

The Chiefs of Staff also emphasized that “Britain and France could give Poland no direct support”

Then why did they promise Poland mounting a general offensive against Germany after 15 days to relieve the Polish war effort ???

Really? In order to entice the Poles not to give into the German demands. BTW: The french did invade Germany, albeit halfheartedly.

[Piotr Kapuscinski]

Really? In order to entice the Poles not to give into the German demands.

Yes but that was in fact an empty promise, as you have just admitted above.

They expected Poland to be occupied and did not really want to prevent that with a general offensive.

So can't we call this a betrayal? Do you think that was not a betrayal? Lack of honesty at the least.

[Gorque]

The defeat and occupation of Poland would result in Germany and the Soviet Union facing off against each other along the former Polish border with Soviet claims on former Polish lands being a major detriment to relations between the 2 nations. The General Staff concluded that Poland’s value was not in her ability to defeat or resist the German Army, but in being able to tie-down German troops in a prolonged occupation, thereby denying the German Army their manpower for use in the West.

That's exactly what I wrote - Poles were supposed to be cannon fodder buying time for the Western Allies. As for those Franco-British hopes that Stalin and Hitler were going to fight each other - Stalin hoped for the same regarding Germany and the Western Allies. He wanted "capitalists" to fight each other and to weaken each other, so that later he could come as a "liberator" and spread Communism.

Poland, in 1939, was stuck between a rock and a hard place. It was hoped that the Guarantee would purchase enough time for the French and British to complete their rearmament due to the fact that the Germans would then face a two front conflict, that is with the Soviets from the East. Like I wrote, what spoiled it was the Molotov Ribbentrop pact.

As you wrote above:

Poland's defeat was part of French and British plans. And they did not plan to save Poland from occupation.

No one forced the Poles to accept the Anglo-French Guarantee. They could have politely refused it, negotiated with the Germans and, perhaps, had peaceful relations between the two for who knows how long. But then again....

[Gorque]

Really? In order to entice the Poles not to give into the German demands.

Yes but that was in fact an empty promise, as you have just admitted above.

They expected Poland to be occupied and did not really want to prevent that with a general offensive.

The British and French expected the Poles, per the Chiefs of Staff report, to hold out for a few months. I doubt that the Chiefs of Staff ever considered the possibility of the Soviets signing a pact with Germany let alone invading Poland from the East seventeen days later.

So can't we call this a betrayal? Do you think that was not a betrayal? Lack of honesty at the least.

For lack of substantive evidence of a betrayal, I choose 'Lack of honesty'.

[wm]

The Poles promised nothing, especially a few months. This is what was promised to them:

19 May. Record of talks between Polish and French General Staff representatives.

PROTOCOLE

Résumant les conversations tenues les 15, 16 et 17 Mai 1939 à Paris, entre:
Monsieur le Général KASPRZYCKI, Ministre des Affaires Militaires de Pologne, représentant Monsieur le Maréchal SMIGLY-RYDZ, Inspecteur Général des Forces Armées de Pologne, et Monsieur le Général GAMELIN, Chef d'Etat-Major Général de la Défense National Française
- ont fixé ce qui suit:
I. — En cas d'agression allemande contre la Pologne ou en cas de menace de ses intérêts vitaux à Dantzig qui provoquerait une action par les armes de la part de la Pologne, l'Armée Française déclenchera automatiquement une action de ses diverses forces armées de la façon suivante:
1. La France exécute immédiatement une action aérienne d'après un plan fixé d'avance.
2. Dès qu'une partie des forces françaises sera prête (vers le troisième jour) la France déclenchera progressivement des actions offensives à objectifs limités.
3. Dès que l'effort principal allemand s'accentuerait sur la Pologne, la France déclencherait une action offensive contre l'Allemagne avec les gros de ses forces (à partir du quinzième jour).

from: Polish Documents on Foreign Policy. The Polish Institute of International Affairs

- an aerial offensive - immediately,
- limited offensive - on the third day,
- all-out offensive - on the fifteenth day of the war.


It should be added Piłsudski and Beck actually expected they would be sold down the river at the nearest opportunity. This is why Polish leaders were so cautious in dealings with France and Britain, especially during the Czechoslovak crisis of 1938.

[4thskorpion]

BTW - there is a Polish alternative history book about Poland accepting Adolf Hitler's proposal of alliance:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pact_Ribbentrop_-_Beck

The novel "Pakt Ribbentrop - Beck" seems to makes a very interesting proposition. Thank you for pointing it out.

[ljadw]

The defeat and occupation of Poland would result in Germany and the Soviet Union facing off against each other along the former Polish border with Soviet claims on former Polish lands being a major detriment to relations between the 2 nations. The General Staff concluded that Poland’s value was not in her ability to defeat or resist the German Army, but in being able to tie-down German troops in a prolonged occupation, thereby denying the German Army their manpower for use in the West.

That's exactly what I wrote - Poles were supposed to be cannon fodder buying time for the Western Allies. As for those Franco-British hopes that Stalin and Hitler were going to fight each other - Stalin hoped for the same regarding Germany and the Western Allies. He wanted "capitalists" to fight each other and to weaken each other, so that later he could come as a "liberator" and spread Communism.

As you wrote above:

Poland's defeat was part of French and British plans. And they did not plan to save Poland from occupation.

So question is - why did they promise Poland to launch a general offensive after 15 days ???

The French (not the British) promised,NOT a general offensive, but an offensive with the available forces,after 15 days .

And you know what ?The French kept their promise : they started such an offensive .

No one forced the Poles to refuse Hitler's demands . Britain and France did what they could, they could not do more.And when they were defeated, the Ples blamed their allies . :roll:

[4thskorpion]

It should be added Piłsudski and Beck actually expected they would be sold down the river at the nearest opportunity. This is why Polish leaders were so cautious in dealings with France and Britain, especially during the Czechoslovak crisis of 1938.

This supposed caution did not stop the Poles own aggressive exploitation of the Czechoslovak crisis by siding with Nazi Germany in the dismemberment of the Czechoslovak state by annexing Teschen nor did their caution stop the Poles threatening military force against Lithuania if they did not accept Polish demands. We know what the British government thought of these actions and how they were later to colour the relationship between sections of HMG and Churchill with the emigre Polish government.

Also, if they were expecting to be sold down the river by France and Great Britain at the earliest opportunity why then did the Polish leaders accept the Anglo-Polish military alliance in the first place. If what you say about Polish caution is true then was this not another case of Polish political ineptitude? Or was it part of the Polish master plan to engineer the defeat of 1939? Although I still don't buy your argument that the defeat of Poland was planned by the Poles as part of some Polish grand strategy.

The French (not the British) promised,NOT a general offensive, but an offensive with the available forces,after 15 days .

The British plan for the initial period of conflict with Germany was to drop millions of propaganda leaflets over German cities in an attempt to dissuade the German population from supporting Hiler's war, a war they could not win against the might of the British Empire's resources and the might of the French forces etc. This policy was discussed by HMG and adopted in May 1939, millions of leaflets were printed by August 1939 and held in storage in case war should break out - I have posted a copy of this first leaflet elsewhere in the forum. True to plan propaganda leaflets were dropped over German cities by the RAF during the early days following the British declaration of war.

[wm]

Actually the regaining of the Teschen area was a rider on the British efforts to partition Czechoslovakia and hand it over to the Nazis.
And it always was a rider, Poland wouldn't do it alone. The Polish Government wouldn't survive a minute if they stood idle watching the Germans annexing former Polish territory.
It was always if you are going to destroy Czechoslovakia the territory should return to Poland.

The French (not the British) promised,NOT a general offensive, but an offensive with the available forces,after 15 days .

There is no available in avec les gros de ses forces, it is the bulk of [French] forces. It is ridiculous to assume that in 15 days the French Army couldn't be mobilized when the Poles were able to do it in a few days.

And you know what ?The French kept their promise : they started such an offensive .

There was a limited offensive. There weren't any aerial offensive, there was no les gros de ses forces offensive. And they knew that perfectly when the signed the agreement with the Poles. It was signed in bad faith, they were not going to honour that agreement ever.

And in the end their inactivity enabled the Soviet aggression. The ever cautious Stalin waited for a sure sign the war was over.

No one forced the Poles to refuse Hitler's demands . Britain and France did what they could, they could not do more.And when they were defeated, the Ples blamed their allies . :roll:

What the Poles did was their own business. The British and the French betrayals of their own allies weren't.

[4thskorpion]

The next part was a general Allied offensive on Germany, as promised by the French.

Re. Lipski, I see this was referenced much earlier in a post by Mr. Mills:

Still not true. Poland never asked Hitler for help in solving any of her internal problems including this one.
Lipski never talked with Hitler about any deportations, never talked with him about the Polish Jews. The talks in 1938 were dedicated to others, more serious contemporary problems.

And Hitler's long deliberations were just long and tiring for everyone one-sided deliberations.

wm, you are incorrect once more:

"Black Earth: The Holocaust as history and warning" by prof. Timothy Snyder

[wm]

Opinions with no sources given. There were no side talks.
The logic of the Polish leadership feared the Soviet Union and wanted to be rid of most Polish Jews borders on obsession, it seems a single sentence couldn't be written today without adding Jews to it.

What the heck the Poles seemed to be discussing with the Germans an emigration of European Jews to Madagascar.
An ignorant detected , I would say an idiot but I feel magnanimous today. No sources, nothing - when in fact they are freely available.

[4thskorpion]

Opinions with no sources given. There were no side talks.
The logic of the Polish leadership feared the Soviet Union and wanted to be rid of most Polish Jews borders on obsession, it seems a single sentence couldn't be written today without adding Jews to it.

What the heck

So says professor wm Google

[wm]

Yes! I say that there are no sources given because I can see it with my own eyeballs.
I'm sure that man hasn't seen the Lipski's report ever. He was using some secondary sources, I can feel it.

Otherwise he would know that:

[Hitler] has in mind an idea for settling the Jewish problem by way of emigration to the colonies in accordance with an understanding with Poland, Hungary, and possibly also Rumania

was a part of the typewrited official report but the:

at which point I told him that if he finds such a solution we will erect him a beautiful monument in Warsaw

was added by Lipski using a pen (or a pencil) - as a joke.