A 1933 proposal to resolve the Polish Corridor dispute

[wm]

There would be no evacuation. The proper strategy was to burden the enemy with the civilians, not yourself.

[wm]

However, unsolicited German aircraft over Prague would certainly be a threat. If they then bombed the city it would then be a war crime. And if they weren't prepared to bomb, why would they be over Prague? Conspicously unarmed aircraft would be pretty pointless.

So Hamburg and Dresden weren't war crimes but Prague would be? What's the difference?

Certainly the Czechs planned to fall back on Slovakia and might wrll have held out for some months if there were no other threats. However, they also faced threats from Hungary and Poland, both of which were after some territory off Slovakia, so this may not have been possible if one or both intervened, which both did at various times.

Poland wasn't going to attack Czechoslovakia and stated that openly many times. Vacillating Hungary even more so.

[Futurist]

However, unsolicited German aircraft over Prague would certainly be a threat. If they then bombed the city it would then be a war crime. And if they weren't prepared to bomb, why would they be over Prague? Conspicously unarmed aircraft would be pretty pointless.

So Hamburg and Dresden weren't war crimes but Prague would be? What's the difference?

Maybe the argument is that the Allies were already at war with Germany but that Germany was not already at war with Czechia? So, it would be unprovoked German aggression against Czechia?

[Futurist]

There would be no evacuation. The proper strategy was to burden the enemy with the civilians, not yourself.

Interesting.

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi futurist,

Nobody wants to abandon their families. It simply wasn't practical or desireable to evacuate the civilian population.

Sid.

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi wm,

Who mentioned Dresden and Hamburg? Not me.

Are you suggesting that an unprovoked bombing of Prague during peace in March 1939 would not have been a crime?

Both Poland and Hungary attacked Czechoslovakia. For example, they jointly supported attacks on Ruthenia from their territory over the winter of 1938-39. Both also occupied parts of Czechoslovakia over the same period and there was fighting in both areas. For a description of these events see "Axis Slovakia" by Axworthy.

I make no point here about the rights or wrongs of these actions. I simply point out that they did occur. The Czecoslovaks lost several hundred dead defending their entire territory territory over 1938-1939.

Cheers,

Sid.

[wm]

Do you have any evidence Hitler intended to bomb Prague without declaring war or without issuing an ultimatum?

Poland wasn't going to attack Czechoslovakia fighting a war with Germany. That was impossible.

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi wm,

Nope, because it didn't actually happen. But the Germans did so elsewhere, so both are plausible.

How are you interpreting the proposal to have German aircraft over Prague? I don't think it was to open unscheduled airline services without Czech permission, do you? Or maybe you think it was the unsolicited offer an acrobatic display team to entertain the Bohemian capital's grateful public? Or perhaps the Luftwaffe was offering to surrender en masse?

Do you have any evidence that it was "impossible" for Poland to attack Czechoslovakia when it was fighting a war with Germany?

Again, there is evidence that questions such blind certainty.

The Germans did not have to leave troops on their Polish border during the Munich Crisis because the Poles let them know that they were interested in getting Tesin off the Czechs themselves, which they did.

As the Poles proved very much to be fellow travellers with the Germans during the Munich Crisis, how can one be sure that they wouldn't still have occupied Tesin by force if the Czechs had resisted the Germans? I would suggest we can't.

Cheers,

Sid.

[gebhk]

The only fellow travellers with the Germans during the Munich crisis were the British, French and Italians. The Poles weren't even on the same train.

Given that the Czechoslovak government had already and from its own initiative agreed to hand over the disputed territory to Poland (and a timetable had been agreed) I have no doubt that if the Czechoslovaks had resisted and if there was any risk of the Germans occupying Tesin, the Poles would have occupied it by threat of force - just as they did in reality when the Munich Agreement created the risk of the same.

Although we seem to be straying very far from the subject of this theme....

[wm]

The Germans did not have to leave troops on their Polish border during the Munich Crisis because the Poles let them know that they were interested in getting Tesin off the Czechs themselves, which they did.

The Germans didn't have to leave troops on their Polish border for the simple reason they were protected by the German-Polish Non-Aggression Pact. And pacta sunt servanda - agreements must be kept.
Czechoslovakia wasn't a Polish ally. Actually, it was hostile toward Poland country, and a threat to Polish security.

The Poles demand the same rights for their minority as the Germans were going to get. As long the Germans got nothing the Poles would get nothing too.

Hitler, according to his unconfirmed story, issued an ultimatum, threatening war if rejected. That wasn't a war crime, it was allowed.
The bombers over Prague "sub-plot" visualized the fact Czechia (after Slovakia left) was defenseless, especially its capital.
Prague was so close to the German border it was impossible to intercept German bombers.

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi gebhk, and wm,

The fact that Hitler was able to denude his frontier with Poland thanks to the 1934 non-aggression pact with Poland merely shows that he had outmanoeuvred them. It released at least two, possibly three, corps for potential operations against the Czechs.

However, the Poles could also use ithe pact for cover. As I understand it, Poland issued its ultimatum to Czechoslovakia on the same day as the Munich Agreement. If that isn't jumping on the German bandwagon, I don't know what is!

It also makes a nonsense of any suggestion that it was done at the Czechoslovaks' "own initiative".

Poland had no obligations to Czechoslovakia like the French did, but its indecent haste to pick over the carcass left by Germany does little to enhance its national dignity.

In what way was Czechoslovakia a threat to Polish security? The reverse is clear, because over 1938/39 Poland encroached on not just Bohemia at Tesin, but it annexed three bits of Slovakia and aided Hungarian Ragged Guard operations against Ruthenia. What were the Czechoslovaks doing against Poland?

Cheers,

Sid.

[Futurist]

Poland had no obligations to Czechoslovakia like the French did, but its indecent haste to pick over the carcass left by Germany does little to enhance its national dignity.

But Poland limited itself to Polish-majority areas--unlike both Germany and Hungary, who went beyond their ethnic areas in March 1939.

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Futurist,

I deliberately didn't address the rights or wrongs of any of these issues because that would lead to a whole new debate.

The fact remains that, right or wrong, Poland was actively aggressive against all three major components of Czechoslovakia - Bohemia-Moravia, Slovakia and Ruthenia. The Germans and Hingarians encroached on only two each.

Poland was actively in there beside Germany and Hungary in dismantling Czechoslovakia in 1938-39.

There can be no pretence that Poland was a disinterested neutral at the time.

Cheers,

Sid

[wm]

It wasn't "on the same day as the Munich Agreement," that's meaningless.

It was after the Munich Agreement granted the lost territory to Poland, and after the Czechs themselves indicated their willingness to return it to Poland (in exchange for Polish help in the almost inevitable war with Germany).

The only "sin" Poland committed was the refusal to wait for the adjudicated by Nazi Germany and fascist Italy so-called Vienna Arbitration.

Hitler didn't outmaneuver the Poles, Czechoslovakia was a politically hostile country, and Poland didn't want to die for an enemy, even more, wasn't required to do so by any treaty.

The Poles put their hopes in the friendly, dominated (even oppressed) by the Czechs Slovaks, and in the Hungarians.

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi wm,

Your last post was entirely fact free.

For example, if the Polish ultimatum to the Czechs wasn't on the same day as the Munich Agreement, when was it?

However one looks at it, Poland was not a disinterested neutral at the time of the Munich Crisis and rode on Germany's coat tails to acquire Tesin.

In what way was Czechoslovakia "a threat to Polish security"? Did it have claims on Polish territory?

From what I read, the Czechoslovaks accepted a 1924 international arbitration on the border and thereafter had no territorial demands on Poland.

Cheers,

Sid.