"Polish" Map showing expansion into Germany?

[Denying-History]

Does anyone know of the origin of these maps? The Source of them advocates this.

"This map was the object of mass distribution both inside and outside Poland during the 1930s as a propaganda postcard, with the support of the Polish governmental authorities. This was Poland’s thanks for the fact that Germany, through its victory over Russia in 1917, enabled the creation of a Polish state for the first time in 100 years.

The map shows the insane chauvinism with which the Poles demand their “historically Polish western border”, even today. According to the map, entire regions of what are today Slovakia and the Czech Republic, not to mention German territories all the way to Dresden and Berlin-Baltic, in addition to all of Silesia, Pomerania, West and East Prussia, are Polish! Not only that, but the Polish eagle (vulture?) is “protectively” spreading his wings far into ethnically German and Russian territory.

Polish chauvinists, emigrants and Bolsheviks all share this megalomania. The map shows, as a motto, the slogan of the Polish poet Adam Mickiewicz: "And every one of you, in your soul, bears a seed of future rights and a measurement of future borders!" "

Its created by Else Löser in which I'm sure to be a "Nationalist" move, I personally am unsure to the trustworthiness of such claims. As of such events from the Germans like Operation "canned goods" and the other operations from Operation Himmler, creating such things as False flag border attacks. As I'm sure were all aware of Gelwitz



When It comes to looking for sources on the maps such searches for such things as polish expansion only seem to show up with that of sites which ether have a Bias to support Adolfs regime or are a Holocaust denial site.

It seems like it would be German propaganda to make the Poles appear to be Hostile to them, just as they did with the Czechoslovakians. As they did release such ideas that the czechs would be able to bomb their entire nation. As shown below.



Other then that we find maps of the Polish defense plan named Plan Zachód (Plan West)...

[Piotr Kapuscinski]

Denying-History,

Tell us where did you take these maps and photo from - what is the source? Check our forum rules:

http://forum.axishistory.com/app.php/rules

"When quoting from a book or site, please provide info on the source (and a link if it is a website)"

Now when it comes to specific points from the OP:

This map was the object of mass distribution both inside and outside Poland during the 1930s as a propaganda postcard, with the support of the Polish governmental authorities.

The second map has descriptions both in Polish and in German, which suggests that it was probably made by Germans.

If it was made in Poland and distributed both inside and outside of Poland, it would probably have Polish and English text.

This was Poland’s thanks for the fact that Germany, through its victory over Russia in 1917, enabled the creation of a Polish state for the first time in 100 years.

This statement is blatantly false.

Poland could re-emerge after WW1 thanks to the fact that all three of Poland's 19th century oppressors - Russia, Germany and Austria - were defeated in that war. The defeat of Russia alone would not have been enough for Poland to regain independence within its complete borders. The defeat of Austria and Germany was also required for all the three partition zones to become united again.

Germany never intended to give back to Poland the lands that Prussia had stolen from Poland in the 18th and 19th centuries, including Pomerelia. Germany could at best grant semi-independence or autonomy to Russian-occupied part of Poland.

The map shows the insane chauvinism with which the Poles demand their “historically Polish western border”, even today. According to the map, entire regions of what are today Slovakia and the Czech Republic, not to mention German territories all the way to Dresden and Berlin-Baltic, in addition to all of Silesia, Pomerania, West and East Prussia, are Polish! Not only that, but the Polish eagle (vulture?) is “protectively” spreading his wings far into ethnically German and Russian territory.

This claim is false. The first map actually shows the western extent of West Slavic territories in the Early Middle Ages (before the so called German "Drang nach Osten"), while the second map shows the westernmost borders of Poland in history, which was in years 1003-1029 / 1031 when it comes to South-Western part of that map (Polish rules over Lusatia, Slovakia and over large parts of lands which are today Czech) and in years 1122-1168 when it comes to North-Western part of that map (Polish rules in what is today Vorpommern).

When It comes to looking for sources on the maps such searches for such things as polish expansion only seem to show up with that of sites which ether have a Bias to support Adolfs regime or are a Holocaust denial site.

It seems like it would be German propaganda to make the Poles appear to be Hostile to them, just as they did with the Czechoslovakians. As they did release such ideas that the czechs would be able to bomb their entire nation. As shown below.

Yes, these particular maps are probably German-made because they have descriptions in German as well.

That said, it is possible that they were German re-prints of some Polish-made propaganda maps.

the Polish eagle (vulture?) is “protectively” spreading his wings far into ethnically German and Russian territory.

None of those territories were ethnically Russian, but some were ethnically Belarusian and Ukrainian. Although many Russians see Ukrainians and Belarusians as branches of Russians, actual Ukrainians and Belarusians tend to see themselves as Non-Russians.

Polish chauvinists, emigrants and Bolsheviks all share this megalomania. The map shows, as a motto, the slogan of the Polish poet Adam Mickiewicz: "And every one of you, in your soul, bears a seed of future rights and a measurement of future borders!"

I can't see this slogan there, which map actually shows this motto ???

Also remember that Adam Mickiewicz wrote that in times when Poland was partitioned and had no borders at all.

Other then that we find maps of the Polish defense plan named Plan Zachód (Plan West)

Poland had two main defence plans - Plan Wschód (East) was a plan of defence against the Soviets. Plan Zachód - against Germany. Why were they named like that? I will reveal the mystery - Germany was Poland's western neighbour, the USSR - eastern neighbour.

Does anyone know of the origin of these maps?

It seems that you have answered your own question (though I'm not 100% sure if the answer is correct):

Its created by Else Löser in which I'm sure to be a "Nationalist" move, I personally am unsure to the trustworthiness of such claims. As of such events from the Germans like Operation "canned goods" and the other operations from Operation Himmler, creating such things as False flag border attacks. As I'm sure were all aware of Gelwitz

[Denying-History]

Thank you for the Assistance Peter, and I was rather unsure if posting the source/link would fall into that of the "Holocaust Denial" category as the site is what seems to be along those line.

http://www.jrbooksonline.com/HTML-docs/ ... istory.htm

Here is the source, and the page may seem along the lines of poor "revisionist" history, and one looks at the main page one can notice quite a bit of targeting against Zionists and Jews.



It seems to be attempting to push the idea of polish guilt for the war, and make it seem the Poles believed that they would be able to take on Germany alone.

Another piece of fake photographic "documentation" intended to convince the Poles themselves that they were all-powerful.

http://www.jrbooksonline.com/HTML-docs/ ... istory.htm

So yah, I'm not exactly sure about it being trustworthy as the only sources which even talk about these photographs are sites which are National Socialist or ones which try to justify the Axis side.

[wm]

This map was the object of mass distribution both inside and outside Poland during the 1930s as a propaganda postcard, with the support of the Polish governmental authorities.

It wasn't. That with the eagle was a poster created in the last months of peace - in 1939, in response to the massive German propaganda campaign at that time, and actually by students from the Silesian Voivodeship if I'm not mistaken. The intention was to deny the Germans territorial claims by showing the early borders of Poland, and the former Slavic territories.
Saying it was during the '30s and it was territorial claims is really incredibly tone deaf. During the '30s any advocate of a historically Polish western border would certainly land in court, and maybe in prison. It simply wasn't allowed.

It seems like it would be German propaganda to make the Poles appear to be Hostile to them, just as they did with the Czechoslovakians. As they did release such ideas that the czechs would be able to bomb their entire nation. As shown below.

Although it should be mentioned the ability to bomb wasn't a proof of hostile intentions - it merely shows Germany was actually a quite small country.
Anyway all the Czechoslovak long range bombers were obsolete in 1938 - and an easy prey for German fighters.

[Denying-History]

Thank you, I was very much unaware of this campaign. Its really hard to find information on it.

It seems like it would be German propaganda to make the Poles appear to be Hostile to them, just as they did with the Czechoslovakians. As they did release such ideas that the czechs would be able to bomb their entire nation. As shown below.

Although it should be mentioned the ability to bomb wasn't a proof of hostile intentions - it merely shows Germany was actually a quite small country.
Anyway all the Czechoslovak long range bombers were obsolete in 1938 - and an easy prey for German fighters.

Though I'm not exactly sure of this, as it would show later on that the Germans had a huge hunger for the land of the area. Posting what could be called unprovoked responses to no threats is what I would call hostile. The Czechs held control of the Sudetenland of which appealed to that of Adolf Hitler, as well the rest of the land. As after the year of 1938 the German's turned back on the agreement which gave them the territory the claimed was under oppression from that of the Czech government, even when the Germans of the Sudetenland were creating what could be considered outrages demands.

The Germans Invasion of Czechoslovakia in 1939 though gives a great hint that the intention of the Propaganda was to create anti-czech sentiment in the german people. While the posting was isn't exactly "Hostile Intentions" by the czech's it is a show from Germany under the control of the National Socialist government making a base for conquest. As the german's invasion in 1939 lead to the Complete Annexation (creation of) Bohemia & Moravia by the Germans. It create a very highly German controlled "Protectorate" out of the Annexed territory and create a more loosely controlled Slovakian protectorate.

Also It should be mentioned this was put in the News papers in 34 not 38. This whole idea was to create Fears that the Czechs would bomb Germany. Also if you Translate what the text says you can read. "A small country threatened Germany"

[michael mills]

That with the eagle was a poster created in the last months of peace - in 1939, in response to the massive German propaganda campaign at that time, and actually by students from the Silesian Voivodeship if I'm not mistaken. The intention was to deny the Germans territorial claims by showing the early borders of Poland, and the former Slavic territories.

It is true that that map was created by a private organisation, not by the Polish Government. However, it also carried a slogan stating that the former Polish territories shown on the map would become Polish once again.

Thus, the intention of the map was not only to refute German claims to Danzig and the Corridor, but also to make claims on territories that were currently German.

It needs to be realised that there were indeed influential groups in Poland outside the Government that did make claims on German territories that had been Polish back in the early Middle Ages.

There were also Polish elements, particularly in the armed forces, that welcomed a war against Germany in alliance with Britain and France, since they believed that in such a war Germany would be quickly defeated by the Allied forces, enabling Poland to seize the German territories east of the Oder-Neisse Line.

Saying it was during the '30s and it was territorial claims is really incredibly tone deaf. During the '30s any advocate of a historically Polish western border would certainly land in court, and maybe in prison. It simply wasn't allowed.

That was true only of a relatively short period, between the German-Polish Declaration of Non-aggression in January 1934, and Pilsudski's death in May 1935.

Pilsudski himself made no territorial claims against Germany, since his aim was always expansion to the East. Nevertheless, after his seizure of power in 1926 he allowed nationalist groups outside the Government to continue making such claims, for the purely tactical purpose of maintaining pressure on Germany to come to an agreement on the existing borders.

Once the new German regime under Hitler abandoned the anti-Polish policies of its predecessors and agreed to the Declaration of Non-Aggression, Pilsudski cracked down on the anti-German elements inside Poland, such as the ZOKZ (Zwiazek Oborony Kresow Zachodnich = Union for the Defence of the Western Regions), and banned all anti-German activity, such as the publication of claims to German territory.

However, after Pilsudski's death, a struggle for power broke out among his successors, pitting the army commander Smigly-Rydz against Foreign Minister Beck, and the Smigly-Rydz faction, in order to gain the support of the anti-German elements that had opposed Pilsudski, removed the restrictions that he had placed on them, such that anti-German propagandising began to emerge once again.

[wm]

It is true that that map was created by a private organisation, not by the Polish Government. However, it also carried a slogan stating that the former Polish territories shown on the map would become Polish once again.

Unfortunately there is no such a statement there.

It needs to be realised that there were indeed influential groups in Poland outside the Government that did make claims on German territories that had been Polish back in the early Middle Ages.

I don't know any group, influential or not that did that in the interbellum period.

There were also Polish elements, particularly in the armed forces, that welcomed a war against Germany in alliance with Britain and France, since they believed that in such a war Germany would be quickly defeated by the Allied forces, enabling Poland to seize the German territories east of the Oder-Neisse Line.

I don't know any group that wanted a war with Germany.

That was true only of a relatively short period, between the German-Polish Declaration of Non-aggression in January 1934, and Pilsudski's death in May 1935.

I think there were people sentenced as late as early 1939 for "offending" Hitler. Till the very end the Polish Government was very careful not to give Hitler any pretext for conflict, and more importantly not to offend British/French sensibilities.

Pilsudski himself made no territorial claims against Germany, since his aim was always expansion to the East. Nevertheless, after his seizure of power in 1926 he allowed nationalist groups outside the Government to continue making such claims, for the purely tactical purpose of maintaining pressure on Germany to come to an agreement on the existing borders.

I don't know any example of this.

Once the new German regime under Hitler abandoned the anti-Polish policies of its predecessors and agreed to the Declaration of Non-Aggression, Pilsudski cracked down on the anti-German elements inside Poland, such as the ZOKZ (Zwiazek Oborony Kresow Zachodnich = Union for the Defence of the Western Regions), and banned all anti-German activity, such as the publication of claims to German territory.

It was an Union for the Defence of the Polish territories, not some kind of an attack lapdog of the Polish government. It was fighting Germans influences on the Polish side of the border.

However, after Pilsudski's death, a struggle for power broke out among his successors, pitting the army commander Smigly-Rydz against Foreign Minister Beck, and the Smigly-Rydz faction, in order to gain the support of the anti-German elements that had opposed Pilsudski, removed the restrictions that he had placed on them, such that anti-German propagandising began to emerge once again.

Although Beck and Śmigły didn't like each other, Beck never was a threat to Śmigły because he was just a bureaucrat with no political support worth mention. As far as I know even his colleagues from the 1920 Polish Army didn't like him.
It would be strange if one of the most faithful Piłsudski's followers tried to gain support of his guru's mortal enemies.

[michael mills]

In May 1939, during a meeting between the French and Polish military commanders, the commander of the Polish army boasted that the Polish cavalry would ride into Berlin within a week of the French army launching its offensive in the west.

Obviously he was not afraid of a war with Germany, and believed that it would be quickly won by the Anglo-French-Polish alliance.

Unfortunately there is no such a statement there.

You are right. I was thinking of a different poster published by a non-government organisation. That poster showed an image of the first Polish king (Boleslaw Chrobry I think), together with a map showing the western border of his lands, lying just to the west of the Oder, and a statement that those lands lost to Germany would become Polish once more.

It was an Union for the Defence of the Polish territories, not some kind of an attack lapdog of the Polish government. It was fighting Germans influences on the Polish side of the border.

Whatever. The fact is that Pilsudski did crack down on ZOKZ and compel it to cease its anti-German activities.

[wm]

In May 1939, during a meeting between the French and Polish military commanders, the commander of the Polish army boasted that the Polish cavalry would ride into Berlin within a week of the French army launching its offensive in the west.

In the instruction for the Polish negotiators with the French Army in 1939 Śmigły wrote he expected the Polish Army to be defeated in three months - before any serious French counteroffensive would have happened. And actually he wasn't much wrong with that as he didn't factor in the Soviet invasion.
So no, the Poles didn't expected any victory, they expected bloody defeat.

Whatever. The fact is that Pilsudski did crack down on ZOKZ and compel it to cease its anti-German activities.

That is true. It was a gesture of good will towards the Germans.

[michael mills]

In the instruction for the Polish negotiators with the French Army in 1939 Śmigły wrote he expected the Polish Army to be defeated in three months - before any serious French counteroffensive would have happened. And actually he wasn't much wrong with that as he didn't factor in the Soviet invasion.
So no, the Poles didn't expected any victory, they expected bloody defeat.

The French military commanders promised their Polish counterparts that the French army would launch an offensive across the western border of Germany 14 days after the declaration of war on that country. The Polish planning was based on that promise, ie once the French offensive began in the west, the Polish forces, which had initially been retreating in the face of the German advance, would launch their own counter-offensive and advance westwards into German territory.

The boast made by the Polish commander at the May meeting was based on that plan, ie once the French mass offensive began in the west, the German forces would be forced to retreat from Polish territory and the Polish forces could advance as far as Berlin.

The instructions given by Rydz-Smigly were presumably based on a worst-case scenario, where the promised French offensive in the west did not take place. And that is in fact what happened in historical reality; there was no massive French offensive in the west, and the Poles were left to be crushed.

But the plan agreed between the French and Polish military leaders was that once war broke out between Germany and Poland, France would join the fight against Germany and launch a massive offensive in the west, allowing the Polish forces to stop withdrawing and begin their own counter-offensive to the west. That plan gave the Polish military commander confidence that Germany would be defeated.

The Polish leaders could not foresee that France would not live up to its commitments. My own feeling is that it was the French promises that gave the Polish leadership the impression that the ambition of the Piast Tendency to expand to the west was now feasible, and that made them willing to believe those promises, whereas they should have been more careful and less trusting.

[Boby]

In the instruction for the Polish negotiators with the French Army in 1939 Śmigły wrote he expected the Polish Army to be defeated in three months - before any serious French counteroffensive would have happened. And actually he wasn't much wrong with that as he didn't factor in the Soviet invasion.
So no, the Poles didn't expected any victory, they expected bloody defeat.

Source? What was told to the French by the polish mission? They overestimated her militar y power when talked to the British and French, as far I know.

[Gorque]

The Chiefs of Staffs were asked on March 28, 1939 to assess the political implications of an Anglo-French guarantee to Poland and Rumania, whereby both Poland and Rumania were to be allies while the Soviet Union would be a friendly neutral and concluded about Poland:

We are not in position to assess the deterrent effect of such a Pact upon Germany, but an important military implication is that if such a Pact were to encourage an intransigient attitude on the part of Poland and Rumania it would thereby tend to precipitate a European war before our forces are in any way prepared for it, and such a war might be started by aggression against Danzig alone.

.....

In the opening phase of the war it is most improbable that Germany would undertake major offensives in both the West and the East.

If she undertook a major offensive in the East there is little doubt that she could occupy Rumania and the Polish corridor. If she were to continue the offensive against Poland it would only be a matter of time (probably only a matter of months) before Poland was eliminated from the war.

Even if Poland had been conquered, however, it might well be that the number of troops required in the East to hold down the conquered territory and safeguard it against possible from Russia would be little, if any, less than the number required to conquer Poland. She would moreover have suffered heavy casualties in the process.

Similarly a German occupation of Rumania which is unlikely to take very long, would, in conjunction with the provision for possible Russian attack on the Rumanian frontier … absorb a considerable number of divisions.

If Germany did not undertake a major offensive in the East, she would probably still have insufficient forces to attack the Maginot Line successfully. She would, however, probably be able to overrun Holland and perhaps a part of Belgium. This would, of course, have serious consequences for us as we have explained in previous Papers.

(from ‘Military Implications of an Anglo-French Guarantee of Poland and Rumania’, draft report, n.d., COS 872 (CAB 53/47))

The Chiefs of Staff emphasized that “Britain and France could give Poland no direct support” and would have to rely upon the Soviet Union for their armaments. The defeat and occupation of Poland would result in Germany and the Soviet Union facing off against each other along the former Polish border with Soviet claims on former Polish lands being a major detriment to relations between the 2 nations. The General Staff concluded that Poland’s value was not in her ability to defeat or resist the German Army, but in being able to tie-down German troops in a prolonged occupation, thereby denying the German Army their manpower for use in the West.

[michael mills]

Thanks for this information, Gorque.

The crucial fact is that the British and French never informed the Polish Government that they would be unable to provide assistance to Poland in the event of a war with Germany. The Polish Government was left with the impression that there would be an offensive against Germany in the west, thereby taking the pressure off Poland.

It is certainly a fact that at the May 1939 talks between the French and Polish military commanders, the French side promised that in the event of war breaking out between Germany and Poland, France would declare war on Germany and launch a mass offensive against it in the west within two weeks. That promise led the Polish side to believe that their forces, although compelled to withdraw in the face of a German advance, would be able to survive until the French offensive, and then counter-attack and advance into German territory. That was the context in which the Polish commander boasted to the French delegates that the Polish cavalry would ride into Berlin within a fortnight of the beginning of the French offensive in the west.

The big mistake made by the British chiefs of staff was to assume that the current German-Soviet enmity would continue after a German occupation of Poland, thereby tying down the bulk of the German forces on the Polish-Soviet frontier, and perhaps even resulting in a German-Soviet war. They did not foresee that Germany and the Soviet Union would reach an agreement that would allow Germany to concentrate its entire armed forces in the west against the British and French and thereby defeat them.

[wm]

Source? What was told to the French by the polish mission? They overestimated her military power when talked to the British and French, as far I know.

They overestimated but didn't deceive - they believed in what they were saying, they deceived themselves too. But really not that much they did know the Polish Army had no offensive capabilities, lacked mobility and couldn't reach Berlin (anyway defended by the enormous Festungsfront Oder-Warthe-Bogen) in five days even if unopposed.

The source is the instruction - Śmigły wrote there he expected the Germans would try to defeat Poland using all their forces before the French would make their move.
Because of that the Polish plan (Plan West) was purely defensive and assumed Polish forces would be pushed back and eventually contained in the so called Romanian Bridghead.
Additionally he wrote at the end of 1939 he knew his army would be defeated - sacrificed in order to give the French/British the time needed to get their act together.

But the plan agreed between the French and Polish military leaders was that once war broke out between Germany and Poland, France would join the fight against Germany and launch a massive offensive in the west, allowing the Polish forces to stop withdrawing and begin their own counter-offensive to the west. That plan gave the Polish military commander confidence that Germany would be defeated.

The plan said Poland would attempt to push back - if possible, without assigning any military value to to that pushing back.
And it should be mention - the plan was agreed but never ratified, so it was hard to be confident when they knew the French political leaders didn't like and accept that plan, and as usual were trying to weasel out of their commitments.

[Boby]

Wm, where is the source? Was just an ex post facto statement, i.e, after the polish defeat? Or there is a primary source of May 1939?

Boby