Poland's maximum war aims in the Soviet-Polish War
Re: Poland's maximum war aims in the Soviet-Polish War
Well, with all due respect Symon Petlura was a spent force and became a Polish puppet.
The Ukrainians didn't support him, especially the peasants after the Soviets promised them land.
Of course, he had the right but the Poles, being afraid of the Bear and the Allies, wouldn't let him.
The Ukrainians didn't support him, especially the peasants after the Soviets promised them land.
Of course, he had the right but the Poles, being afraid of the Bear and the Allies, wouldn't let him.
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Re: Poland's maximum war aims in the Soviet-Polish War
The maximum goal would be to tear off non-Russian parts of the former empire and establish buffer states there.
In the first place, it was about Ukraine and Belarus, but ultimately it was also thought about separating the Caucasus and Central Asian republics from Russia (Georgia, Armenia, Kazakhstan, Azerbaijan, etc.)
In fact, the plan was to check what is possible and what is not in combat.
Pilsudski was of the opinion (quite right) that the western border will be established in the Versailles Treaty, that the eastern border will be determined by force due to the chaos in the east after the fall of the Russian Empire
In the first place, it was about Ukraine and Belarus, but ultimately it was also thought about separating the Caucasus and Central Asian republics from Russia (Georgia, Armenia, Kazakhstan, Azerbaijan, etc.)
In fact, the plan was to check what is possible and what is not in combat.
Pilsudski was of the opinion (quite right) that the western border will be established in the Versailles Treaty, that the eastern border will be determined by force due to the chaos in the east after the fall of the Russian Empire
Re: Poland's maximum war aims in the Soviet-Polish War
Would such a "bourgeois" Ukrainian state have actually had mass public support in Ukraine or would the Ukrainians have preferred the Bolsheviks and their land redistribution program?wm wrote: ↑24 Oct 2017, 23:27According to the newest biography of Piłsudski the war aims of that war were: destruction of the Red Army, and creation of a "bourgeois" Ukrainian state. In this he was grudgingly supported by the French, but opposed by the British - alarmed by the increase of France's power on the Continent.
His main goal was a severe and permanent weakening of the main Polish enemy - Russia (i.e. the driving force behind the partitions) by, hopefully, splitting her along national lines (similarly as it happened after the fall of communism).
The concept of the federation was embraced by Piłsudski opportunistically, because of "the Americans and their ideas", but he really had mainly Polish interests in mind.
Re: Poland's maximum war aims in the Soviet-Polish War
Mass public support was unlikely, it didn't exist during the war so why later.
Because of the massive poverty Ukraine would be an easy prey for the communists and their (highly effective) propaganda.
Pilsudski, as so many others, didn't expect the USSR to last or at least to be a viable power. He was more afraid of Russia that the USSR.
Because of the massive poverty Ukraine would be an easy prey for the communists and their (highly effective) propaganda.
Pilsudski, as so many others, didn't expect the USSR to last or at least to be a viable power. He was more afraid of Russia that the USSR.
Re: Poland's maximum war aims in the Soviet-Polish War
But couldn't Poland bring economic development to Ukraine over time?
Interesting. Did he change his mind on this by 1922?Pilsudski, as so many others, didn't expect the USSR to last or at least to be a viable power. He was more afraid of Russia that the USSR.
Re: Poland's maximum war aims in the Soviet-Polish War
Of course, he actually was afraid that in the forties the USSR would be a greater threat than Germany.
Poland couldn't bring economic development to itself, so it was forget-it in the case of Ukraine.
Poland couldn't bring economic development to itself, so it was forget-it in the case of Ukraine.
Last edited by wm on 08 Jun 2020, 23:34, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Poland's maximum war aims in the Soviet-Polish War
What about a USSR-Germany alliance against Poland?
Just how much could the Anglo-French have helped Poland with economic development? What about the Americans?Poland couldn't bring economic development to itself, so it was forget-it in the case of Ukraine.
Re: Poland's maximum war aims in the Soviet-Polish War
There was no reason for the US, Britain, or France to dump a large chunk of their national wealth in Poland.
Even during the ww2 it was "pay for the goods or else." The Poles for example had to pay for weapons their received from Britain, the British had to pay for American weapons.
A USSR-Germany alliance against Poland would be like an apocalyptic comet strike. There was no need to concern with that.
If there's no solution, there's no problem.
Even during the ww2 it was "pay for the goods or else." The Poles for example had to pay for weapons their received from Britain, the British had to pay for American weapons.
A USSR-Germany alliance against Poland would be like an apocalyptic comet strike. There was no need to concern with that.
If there's no solution, there's no problem.
Re: Poland's maximum war aims in the Soviet-Polish War
What about the Marshall Plan?wm wrote: ↑09 Jun 2020, 08:32There was no reason for the US, Britain, or France to dump a large chunk of their national wealth in Poland.
Even during the ww2 it was "pay for the goods or else." The Poles for example had to pay for weapons their received from Britain, the British had to pay for American weapons.
Interesting approach.A USSR-Germany alliance against Poland would be like an apocalyptic comet strike. There was no need to concern with that.
If there's no solution, there's no problem.