What size did Hitler want his Polish puppet state to be?

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Re: What size did Hitler want his Polish puppet state to be?

Post by Futurist » 25 Jun 2020 01:19

Sid Guttridge wrote:
25 Jun 2020 00:50
Hi Futurist,

I wouldn't describe Antonescu as "a vile piece of crap". In Romania that distinction was held by the Iron Guard.
If another piece of crap if even crappier than the first piece of crap this doesn't automatically mean that the first piece of crap was something other than a piece of crap.
Antonescu was a courageous Romanian patriot whose main redeeming feature was relative incorruptibility in a very corrupt country. Under him, a significanr part of the Jewish population was displaced and died due to malign neglect. While hardly a ringing endorsement of him, this was significantly less draconian than the Nazis' proactive attempt to wipe out all Jews everywhere.
Horthy's record was better before 1944, as was Bulgaria's (excluding Macedonia) and Italy's before the 1943 Nazi German invasion.
I think you will find your 280,000 - 380,000 Romanian Jewish deaths includes about 125,000 from Northern Transylvania, who were actually handed over to the Germans by Hungary.
No, it doesn't. This figure only includes those Jews whose deaths lay at Antonescu's hands:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiesel_Commission
There is also some doubt as to how many ex-Soviet Jews were killed due to some evacuations carried out by the USSR. However, it is clear that the number of Jewish deaths at the hands of the Romanians was in the hundreds of thousands.

Cheers,

Sid.
The parts of the Soviet Union that Romania occupied had plenty of Jews in them--especially (but not only) Bessarabia, Bukovina, and Odessa (half of whose Jewish population was successfully evacuated, but half who wasn't). In Odessa itself, something like 100,000 out of 200,000 Jews were still there when the Romanians conquered Odessa in October 1941. Nearly all of them subsequently perished. Ditto for most of the Jews who remained in Bessarabia (perhaps 150,000 out of 200,000 remaining Bessarabian Jews) and half of the Jews who remained in Bukovina (perhaps 35,000 out of 70,000, a majority of whom were located in Chernivtsi). Plus, this is not to mention that the areas surrounding Odessa that Romania occupied also had some Jews of their own. So, yeah, overall, 280,000-380,000 dead Jews as a result of Antonescu's rule sounds very realistic.

This book could provide some additional information about detailed Holocaust statistics for the Soviet Union, if you're curious:

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Th ... =vinnitsia

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Re: What size did Hitler want his Polish puppet state to be?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 28 Jun 2020 08:17

Hi Futurist,

I don't propose to get into a bidding war as to precisely how many Jews died at Romanian hands because (1) from experience this is seldom productive, (2) the estimate I have (about 250,000) is not much different from your lower estimate of 280,000, (3) because there is some uncertainty about the exactitude of all these figures and (4) because the moral and other implications remain the same any way.I

Hungary and Bulgaria drew the same contrived distinctions between the Jews of their core countries and those of more recently acquired or reacquired territories in Northern Transilvania and Macedonia as did the Romanians between the Jews of the Regat and those of the territories gained off Russia after WWI. In all three cases it was largely the Jews of the new acquisitions who died while those from the core of these countries survived largely or partially intact. (I imagine this was because they were all initially trying to consolidate their particular nationality's hold on what were areas of mixed or disputable populations).

The essential difference is that while the Romanians were directly responsible for the deaths of most of the Jews from Basarabia, Northern Bucovina and Transnistria who died, the Hungarians and Bulgarians let the Germans do most of the actual killing for them. Thus, while Romania was engaged In what might be termed a "parallel Holocaust", Hungary and Bulgaria contributed to the actual "Holocaust".

Nor did Horthy have an unblemished record. He had instituted the first restrictions on Jews in the 1920s before Hitler had even reached power. Hungary's Jews served behind the Eastern Front in unarmed labour battalions. According to Yad Vashem, some 40,000 did not return. In addition, approaching 150,000 Northern Transilvanian Jews were rounded up by the Hungarian authorities while Horthy was still at least nominally head of state, and handed over to the Germans, who killed over 100,000 of them.

What did Horthy try to do to prevent this? (This is an open question to which I do not know the answer). I ask because I have seen it advanced that the handing over of the Northern Transilvanian Jews to the Germans was part of a quid pro quo for him being allowed to stay in office.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: What size did Hitler want his Polish puppet state to be?

Post by Futurist » 28 Jun 2020 20:53

Sid Guttridge wrote:
28 Jun 2020 08:17
Hi Futurist,

I don't propose to get into a bidding war as to precisely how many Jews died at Romanian hands because (1) from experience this is seldom productive, (2) the estimate I have (about 250,000) is not much different from your lower estimate of 280,000, (3) because there is some uncertainty about the exactitude of all these figures and (4) because the moral and other implications remain the same any way.I

Hungary and Bulgaria drew the same contrived distinctions between the Jews of their core countries and those of more recently acquired or reacquired territories in Northern Transilvania and Macedonia as did the Romanians between the Jews of the Regat and those of the territories gained off Russia after WWI. In all three cases it was largely the Jews of the new acquisitions who died while those from the core of these countries survived largely or partially intact. (I imagine this was because they were all initially trying to consolidate their particular nationality's hold on what were areas of mixed or disputable populations).

The essential difference is that while the Romanians were directly responsible for the deaths of most of the Jews from Basarabia, Northern Bucovina and Transnistria who died, the Hungarians and Bulgarians let the Germans do most of the actual killing for them. Thus, while Romania was engaged In what might be termed a "parallel Holocaust", Hungary and Bulgaria contributed to the actual "Holocaust".

Nor did Horthy have an unblemished record. He had instituted the first restrictions on Jews in the 1920s before Hitler had even reached power. Hungary's Jews served behind the Eastern Front in unarmed labour battalions. According to Yad Vashem, some 40,000 did not return. In addition, approaching 150,000 Northern Transilvanian Jews were rounded up by the Hungarian authorities while Horthy was still at least nominally head of state, and handed over to the Germans, who killed over 100,000 of them.

What did Horthy try to do to prevent this? (This is an open question to which I do not know the answer). I ask because I have seen it advanced that the handing over of the Northern Transilvanian Jews to the Germans was part of a quid pro quo for him being allowed to stay in office.

Cheers,

Sid.
In regards to Hungarian Jews, it's worth noting that, AFAIK, Northern Transylvanian Jews were not alone in being mass murdered. Specifically, to my knowledge, almost all Hungarian Jews outside of Budapest were mass murdered during the Holocaust in the months of May-July 1944. So, it's not true that Horthy drew a distinction between Hungary's old territories and Hungary's newly acquired territories in regards to their Jewish populations. If one was a Jew in Szeged, Pecs, or Gyor, I'm presuming that one's odds of survival during the Holocaust would not have been too different than if one was a Jew in Northern Transylvania.

As for Jewish quotas, they could at least be excused as being a form of pro-non-Jewish affirmative action.

In regards to sending Jews to the Eastern Front in unarmed labor battalions, what was Romania's policy in regards to this? Indeed, which Axis countries other than Finland actually allowed Jews to serve in their armed forces?

As for the Northern Transylvanian Jews, my impression was that they were exterminated in May-July 1944 along with the rest of Hungary's Jewish population excluding that of Budapest. That was after March 1944, when Nazi Germany occupied Hungary. True, Horthy was nominally head of state in Hungary even after the German occupation, but the question is just how much power he actually had. He was, after all, able to stop the deportations in early July 1944, but the Nazis subsequently overthrew him in October 1944 and imposed a reign of terror upon Budapest's Jews afterwards, so it's not like the Nazis had unlimited patience for Horthy's defiance.

Should Mussolini be blamed for the Holocaust that occurred in the Salo Republic since he was the nominal head of state there even though it was occupied by the Germans?

As for Hungarians themselves, Yes, AFAIK, there were plenty of Hungarians who were, in fact, willing to cooperate with the Germans in regards to implementing the Holocaust. This doesn't necessarily mean that they were following Horthy's orders in doing so, though.

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Re: What size did Hitler want his Polish puppet state to be?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 29 Jun 2020 00:21

Hi futurist,

The Jews of Northern Transilvania were the first to be taken.

I think we need to unpack "As for Jewish quotas, they could at least be excused as being a form of pro-non-Jewish affirmative action."

Excused? Are you saying they were OK?

And, once one disentangles the double negatives and false positives, do the last five words not actually mean anti-Jewish restrictive action? The pro thing would be to find more university places for Hungarians, not reduce those available to Jews.

I suspect this might not be what you meant, but it does require some clarification.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: What size did Hitler want his Polish puppet state to be?

Post by Futurist » 29 Jun 2020 00:36

Sid Guttridge wrote:
29 Jun 2020 00:21
Hi futurist,

The Jews of Northern Transilvania were the first to be taken.

I think we need to unpack "As for Jewish quotas, they could at least be excused as being a form of pro-non-Jewish affirmative action."

Excused? Are you saying they were OK?
They were as OK as affirmative action for blacks and Hispanics is in the US nowadays.
And, once one disentangles the double negatives and false positives, do the last five words not actually mean anti-Jewish restrictive action? The pro thing would be to find more university places for Hungarians, not reduce those available to Jews.

I suspect this might not be what you meant, but it does require some clarification.

Cheers,

Sid.
You could do that, but the thing is that university admissions is inevitably a zero-sum game. Universities only have so much potential to expand, so every seat that someone takes is a seat that could have been given to someone else.

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Re: What size did Hitler want his Polish puppet state to be?

Post by Futurist » 29 Jun 2020 00:41

In regards to affirmative action, here's an interesting article about Russian pro-non-Jewish affirmative action:

https://akarlin.com/2012/06/russian-ant ... in-action/

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Re: What size did Hitler want his Polish puppet state to be?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 29 Jun 2020 02:07

Hi Futurist,

The Hungarians were not a disadvantaged minority. They were a massive majority with all the levers of power of the state available to them. Their situation was nothing like that of Blacks and Hispanics in the USA.

Given the small numbers who used to go to university and the massively increased number who go now, clearly there was enormous scope for increasing the number of university places without depriving Jews of some of them.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: What size did Hitler want his Polish puppet state to be?

Post by Futurist » 29 Jun 2020 03:36

Sid Guttridge wrote:
29 Jun 2020 02:07
Hi Futurist,

The Hungarians were not a disadvantaged minority. They were a massive majority with all the levers of power of the state available to them. Their situation was nothing like that of Blacks and Hispanics in the USA.

Given the small numbers who used to go to university and the massively increased number who go now, clearly there was enormous scope for increasing the number of university places without depriving Jews of some of them.

Cheers,

Sid.
The complaint was that Jews are getting more university seats percentage-wise than their percentage of the total Hungarian population actually warranted. As for US blacks and Hispanics, considering that by the late 21st century these two groups are likely to combined make up 40+% of the total US population--with black/Hispanic combo majorities in some US states--I expect these groups to have quite a bit of political power in the US by that point in time. Heck, even right now, in the US Democratic Party, blacks and Hispanics certainly currently have a lot of love and support (as they should, of course).

My overall point here, though, was that particular groups are going to be underrepresented in regards to things such as university admissions percentage-wise in a purely meritocratic system. Whether that's viewed as good or bad depends on the beholder, I suppose.

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Re: What size did Hitler want his Polish puppet state to be?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 29 Jun 2020 19:27

Hi Futurist,

Yes, the Jews were earning a very disproportional share of university places. So why not do what actually happened in the post war decades everywhere and massively increase the number of university places?

Yup, if their numbers give them a proportional share of power in the USA in the future, then Black and Hispanic US citizens will have some real influence. However, thus far this has not been the case.

One, possibly the main, advantage Jews often hold is that for historical reasons, their culture tends to emphasise intellectual and professional achievements. The cultures of other groups can tend towards other priorities. It is not up to the Jews to rein themselves back, or for others to rein them back, it is for others to up their own game. Cultural adaptation would go a long way towards them achieving this.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: What size did Hitler want his Polish puppet state to be?

Post by Futurist » 29 Jun 2020 20:21

Sid Guttridge wrote:
29 Jun 2020 19:27
Hi Futurist,

Yes, the Jews were earning a very disproportional share of university places. So why not do what actually happened in the post war decades everywhere and massively increase the number of university places?
But that would result in Jews earning even more of these seats unless affirmative action for non-Jews would have been implemented.
Yup, if their numbers give them a proportional share of power in the USA in the future, then Black and Hispanic US citizens will have some real influence. However, thus far this has not been the case.
Really? Because in response to the BLM protests in the US right now, black political concerns appear to be taken VERY seriously by our political elites and also by our media. :)
One, possibly the main, advantage Jews often hold is that for historical reasons, their culture tends to emphasise intellectual and professional achievements. The cultures of other groups can tend towards other priorities. It is not up to the Jews to rein themselves back, or for others to rein them back, it is for others to up their own game. Cultural adaptation would go a long way towards them achieving this.

Cheers,

Sid.
TBH, I'm unsure that having gentiles try harder and adapt their cultures would have actually resulted in significant progress in regards to this. This would be especially true if the evolutionary explanation for the success of Ashkenazi Jews is the correct one.

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Re: What size did Hitler want his Polish puppet state to be?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 29 Jun 2020 21:21

Hi Futurist,

Why? Jews were only 5% of Hungary's population. There is a limit to how many university slots they could fill. If you provide, say, 30% of the population with tertiary education, no Jews would have to be discriminated against.

Yes, currently Black political priorities are very prominent in the USA. This is particularly so now because their concerns haven't necessarily been addressed in the past. For example, I see a statue to slaving entrepreneur and Confederate general Nathan Bedford Forrest was put up two years AFTER Martin Luther King was shot and in the same town where he was killed.

So, you accept that gentiles can never compete on equal terms with Askenazi Jews due to inherent evolutionary inferiority and don't see culture as a significantly influential factor? That is hopelessly defeatist.

Besides, how would restricting Jewish access to university places change any evolutionary inferiority for gentiles, even if it were true?

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: What size did Hitler want his Polish puppet state to be?

Post by Futurist » 29 Jun 2020 23:06

Sid Guttridge wrote:
29 Jun 2020 21:21
Hi Futurist,

Why? Jews were only 5% of Hungary's population. There is a limit to how many university slots they could fill. If you provide, say, 30% of the population with tertiary education, no Jews would have to be discriminated against.
But there would still be only so many elite Hungarian universities, no?
Yes, currently Black political priorities are very prominent in the USA. This is particularly so now because their concerns haven't necessarily been addressed in the past. For example, I see a statue to slaving entrepreneur and Confederate general Nathan Bedford Forrest was put up two years AFTER Martin Luther King was shot and in the same town where he was killed.
Yep. Indeed, it's quite uplifting to see all those statues come down (though I'd have preferred it if those statues survived and been put in museums instead since some of them really are quite fine works of art) as well as to see Mississippi finally change its flag after a whopping 126 years! :)
So, you accept that gentiles can never compete on equal terms with Askenazi Jews due to inherent evolutionary inferiority and don't see culture as a significantly influential factor? That is hopelessly defeatist.
I think that gentiles can certainly evolve to have as higher of an average IQ as Ashkenazi Jews have if they will have more eugenic fertility than Ashkenazi Jews will have over a sufficiently long time period.
Besides, how would restricting Jewish access to university places change any evolutionary inferiority for gentiles, even if it were true?

Cheers,

Sid.
It wouldn't, but it might help gentiles advance economically similar to what affirmative action currently presumably does for both US blacks and US Hispanics.

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Re: What size did Hitler want his Polish puppet state to be?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 30 Jun 2020 00:24

Hi Futurist,

So now it is just Jewish entry into elite Hungarian universities that is at issue?

Of what does this "eugenic fertility" consist? Do you want to put all gentiles through 2,000 years of exile, repeated expulsions, restrictions and pogroms, topped by a near genocide to winnow them down by natural selection so that only the fittest survive?

A dubious Sid.

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Re: What size did Hitler want his Polish puppet state to be?

Post by Futurist » 30 Jun 2020 02:01

Sid Guttridge wrote:
30 Jun 2020 00:24
Hi Futurist,

So now it is just Jewish entry into elite Hungarian universities that is at issue?
Yes--specifically their entry at a disproportionate percentage relative to their share of the total Hungarian population. Why do you think that US blacks and US Hispanics are both so determined to have large representation at Ivy League US schools?
Of what does this "eugenic fertility" consist? Do you want to put all gentiles through 2,000 years of exile, repeated expulsions, restrictions and pogroms, topped by a near genocide to winnow them down by natural selection so that only the fittest survive?

A dubious Sid.
No; rather, simply encouraging (through non-coercive means) the smartest gentiles to reproduce more than the dullest gentiles will.

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Re: What size did Hitler want his Polish puppet state to be?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 30 Jun 2020 06:21

Hi Futurist,

I still don't see why you want to take university places away from the 5% of the population who were Jews rather than create more places for everyone?

This is simply an anti-Semitic proposition, not a "pro non-Jewish affirmative action". The "pro non-Jewish affirmative action" would be to provide more university places for everyone.

Even if every Hungarian Jew went to university, which they undoubtedly did not, they couldn't fill all the places once more than 5% of the population was going to university. In Hungary in 2016 28% were taking degrees. (Ironically, this total might today have been even higher had the international university of the Hungarian Jewish financier George Soros not been forced out of the country!)

If we accept this euphemism, I suppose the so-called "Holocaust" was also a "pro non-Jewish affirmative action"!

It would appear that you do not believe in the utility of the principle that "all men are created equal" or, by logical extension, democracy, which requires acceptance of this.

The central drive of all life is to reproduce. You seem to be proposing to use the organs of a shared state to deprive some of the population of an equal opportunity to reproduce. This is nearly as fundamental an attack on basic human rights as it is possible to make without killing people who already exist en masse.

Cheers,

Sid.

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