What size did Hitler want his Polish puppet state to be?

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Sid Guttridge
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Re: What size did Hitler want his Polish puppet state to be?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 03 Dec 2019 12:11

Hi wm,

No, it isn't a mere "stylistic device".

As selectively quoted by you (without the "if") it becomes a statement of fact. In cherry picking only ".....one rejects the Bolshevik method of physical extermination of a people out of inner conviction as un-German and impossible" you are presenting this as Himmler's position.

However, if you return the "if" to its position and put out a fuller text, the meaning changes significantly: "this method (shipping Jews off to a colony in Africa or somewhere similarly distant) is still the mildest and best, if one rejects the Bolshevik method of physical extermination of a people out of inner conviction as un-German and impossible" Himmler very much leaves his own position open to question.

We know from his actions within the year what his actual position was, and it very definitely wasn't that he rejected "the Bolshevik method of physical extermination of a people out of inner conviction as un-German and impossible", because he began to do precisely that to the Jews of Europe.

Why was your selective quotation only partial? Accident or design?

Cheers,

Sid.

gebhk
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Re: What size did Hitler want his Polish puppet state to be?

Post by gebhk » 07 Dec 2019 22:52

the US entered the war against Germany
To be pedantic, it was Germany that entered the war against the US. Just how wise a decision that was, I will leave to others to opine.
Himmler very much leaves his own position open to question
Or perhaps more a case of leaving his position open. And who would have thought he was such an accomplished politician..... ? :?

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Re: What size did Hitler want his Polish puppet state to be?

Post by Futurist » 01 Jan 2020 08:48

gebhk wrote:
07 Dec 2019 22:52
the US entered the war against Germany
To be pedantic, it was Germany that entered the war against the US. Just how wise a decision that was, I will leave to others to opine.
True, though the US's increased indirect involvement in the war in the 1.5 years before Pearl Harbor made an eventual US entry into the war much more likely than it was before the Fall of France.
Himmler very much leaves his own position open to question
Or perhaps more a case of leaving his position open. And who would have thought he was such an accomplished politician..... ? :?
Agreed.

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wm
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Re: What size did Hitler want his Polish puppet state to be?

Post by wm » 06 Jan 2020 23:12

Sid Guttridge wrote:
03 Dec 2019 12:11
No, it isn't a mere "stylistic device"
Yes, it's a stylistic device, or at least we don't know what he meant. It's all reading tea leaves or reading ifs.

if that ("one rejects the Bolshevik method of physical extermination of a people out of inner conviction as un-German and impossible") isn't his thought then whose is it? Hitler's, Goering's? I don't think he needed to refer to a statement of any lesser Nazis in that.

The words used (un-German and impossible) are quite emotional and convincing, they would reverberate strongly with any German, they shouldn't be treated dismissively.

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Re: What size did Hitler want his Polish puppet state to be?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 08 Jan 2020 14:35

Hi wm,

To repeat in the hope of an answer;

No, it isn't a mere "stylistic device".

As selectively quoted by you (without the "if") it becomes a statement of fact. In cherry picking only ".....one rejects the Bolshevik method of physical extermination of a people out of inner conviction as un-German and impossible" you are presenting this as Himmler's position.

However, if you return the "if" to its position and put out a fuller text, the meaning changes significantly: "this method (shipping Jews off to a colony in Africa or somewhere similarly distant) is still the mildest and best, if one rejects the Bolshevik method of physical extermination of a people out of inner conviction as un-German and impossible" Himmler very much leaves his own position open to question.

We know from his actions within the year what his actual position was, and it very definitely wasn't that he rejected "the Bolshevik method of physical extermination of a people out of inner conviction as un-German and impossible", because he began to do precisely that to the Jews of Europe.

Why was your selective quotation only partial? Accident or design?

Cheers,

Sid.

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wm
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Re: What size did Hitler want his Polish puppet state to be?

Post by wm » 08 Jan 2020 22:41

It was two years, and actions two years later don't prove what his position was two years earlier - it's just a non sequitur.

And bdw it wasn't about the Jews it was mostly about the Slavs. In the quite a long document Jews are only mentioned in a single sentence there ("I hope that the concepts of Jews will be completely extinguished through the possibility of a large emigration of all Jews to Africa or some other colony."):

Apart from this school there are to be no schools at all in the East. Parents, who from the beginning want to give their children better schooling in the elementary school as well as later on in a higher school, must take an application to the Higher SS and Police Leaders. The first consideration in dealing with this application will be whether the child is racially perfect and conforming to our conditions. If we acknowledge such a child to be as of our blood, the parents will be notified that the child will be sent to a school in Germany and that it will permanently remain in Germany.

Cruel and tragic as every individual case may be, this method is still the mildest and best one if, out of inner conviction, one rejects as un-German and impossible the Bolshevist method of physical extermination of a people.

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Re: What size did Hitler want his Polish puppet state to be?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 09 Jan 2020 13:33

Double post.
Last edited by Sid Guttridge on 09 Jan 2020 13:34, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What size did Hitler want his Polish puppet state to be?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 09 Jan 2020 13:34

Hi wm,

Nope, it is very much a "sequitur"!

You are again trying to pretend that that "if" is not there. It definitely is.

To quote you back to yourself, "Cruel and tragic as every individual case may be, this method is still the mildest and best one if, out of inner conviction, one rejects as un-German and impossible the Bolshevist method of physical extermination of a people."

It would appear from subsequent events that Himmler certainly did not reject "as un-German and impossible the Bolshevist method of physical extermination of a people", because he went ahead and tried to do precisely that to the Jews.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: What size did Hitler want his Polish puppet state to be?

Post by wm » 09 Jan 2020 14:35

Please, the entire document is about pacification of the freshly conquered territories. It's a long term goal; in the end, the population will be not a threat but a valuable asset of Greater Germany.

And by doing what?
- cultivate as many individual ethnic groups as possible
- dissolve them into innumerable small fragments and particles
- no higher school than the four-grade elementary school
- a child ... of our blood, ... will be sent to a school in Germany and that it will permanently remain in Germany
- this population ... will furnish Germany annually with migrant workers
- they themselves will have more to eat and more to live on than under the Polish regime

What is the alternative? The Bolshevist method of physical extermination of a people.

Why is the Bolshevist method rejected? Because this method is still the mildest and best one and out of inner conviction.

Do you smell Zyklon B there? Because I don't.

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wm
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Re: What size did Hitler want his Polish puppet state to be?

Post by wm » 09 Jan 2020 15:13

more:
this method is still the mildest and best one.
What method? a child ... of our blood, ... will be sent to a school in Germany and ... will permanently remain in Germany
Why? Because of the danger of ... obtaining class of leaders which ... would ... be dangerous for us.

So the choice was between Germanization of eventual leaders or physical extermination in their childhood.
He preferred Germanization.

Cruel and tragic was forced Germanization of racially valuable Polish children and nothing else, it wasn't about the Holocaust or any other genocide.
Himmler explains his cruelty away by claiming alternatives are worse.
The entire document proves that in 1940 the Holocaust was impossible. And un-German.

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Re: What size did Hitler want his Polish puppet state to be?

Post by Futurist » 09 Jan 2020 22:44

@wm: It's worth noting the context of 1940, though. In 1940, it looked like Germany could still win the war. Had Germany been at risk of losing the war in 1940, well, it's certainly possible that Himmler could have experienced an about-face in regards to this just like he did in 1941-1942 in real life. In Himmler's view, mass murder was un-German if there was actually another option, but what if there will no longer be perceived as being any other option due to Germany beginning to lose the war?

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Re: What size did Hitler want his Polish puppet state to be?

Post by wm » 10 Jan 2020 01:05

Of course, this is what I said at the beginning. In extreme, apocalyptic-like circumstances you have to resort to extreme measures.

If young Germans, the best people Germany had, were dying by millions fighting it was reasonable to sacrifice the least valuable members of the society too.
Otherwise, it would be like in post-war Poland, when it was said the best Poles died and only the scum survived.
Hitler said that many times too, that he was afraid the best Germans would perish and only the German scum would survive.

In such circumstances what really could you have said in defense of the "least valuable members of the society" than it was un-German and impossible.

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Re: What size did Hitler want his Polish puppet state to be?

Post by Futurist » 10 Jan 2020 01:21

Wouldn't similar factors have also been at play if the 1940 German invasion of France fails and Germans subsequently begin losing huge numbers of their "best men" to the meat-grinder on the Western Front, though?

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Re: What size did Hitler want his Polish puppet state to be?

Post by wm » 10 Jan 2020 08:46

In 1940 the Holocaust didn't make sense, it would achieve nothing, and they didn't even know it was doable - but the war in Russia demonstrated them it was.
Without that learning process in Russia, it's hard to tell what would happen in such circumstances.

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Re: What size did Hitler want his Polish puppet state to be?

Post by Futurist » 10 Jan 2020 09:00

Wouldn't the Holocaust still weaken the "power" of "International Jewry" if it was done in 1940 if Germany would have begun losing the war during this time, though?

As for Russia showing the Nazis that it was doable, that's a good point. That said, though, can't the Nazis still go slow in this scenario--for instance, by deporting a few Jews from the ghettos and subsequently mass-murdering them--and then gradually escalate from there?

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