What size did Hitler want his Polish puppet state to be?

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Steve
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Re: What size did Hitler want his Polish puppet state to be?

Post by Steve » 03 Feb 2020 23:54

At the end of 1942 Jan Karski author of “The Secret State” was sent to London by the Polish Home Army. He travelled via Berlin and decided to call on a pre war friend whose family he had boarded with while studying in Berlin. The following is his description taken from page 350 paperback version.

“I remained in the house for a few hours and noticed nothing of significant change. The standard of living was obviously lower, the equipment clothing and food around the house of poor quality ………………… For dinner they asked me to a beer house on a side street just off Under den Linden. It was a “standardized” meal but ample and fairly cheap, about fifteen marks for the three of us”.

Clearly things were not as they were pre war but it is also clear that Germans were not suffering great hardships. The site below gives an American analysis of food production in Europe at the start of the 43/44 winter. At one point it says that “in the winter of 1941 – 42 Germany transferred about 4 million pounds of Danish butter to Finland”. I hope no one will argue that Soviet prisoners of war would not have known what to do with butter.

https://library.cqpress.com/cqresearche ... 1942100300

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Re: What size did Hitler want his Polish puppet state to be?

Post by Futurist » 21 Apr 2020 21:00

Interesting link; thanks, Steve! :)

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Re: What size did Hitler want his Polish puppet state to be?

Post by wm » 14 May 2020 00:08

That's anecdotal evidence from a fabularized account.
And describes food situation two years later. It's quite possible they were feasting on food the Jews didn't need anymore.

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Re: What size did Hitler want his Polish puppet state to be?

Post by Futurist » 14 May 2020 05:52

How many additional people (especially Soviet POWs and Jews) do you think that the Nazis could have fed (in terms of actual capability to feed these people) had the Nazis actually had the desire to feed these people? Basically, I want to know just how many additional people could have been fed by the Nazis without actually jeopardizing the Nazi war effort.

Also, out of curiosity--did the Allies actually have any additional food to spare during this time? If so, could they have tried making a deal with the Nazis to use this spare food to feed Soviet POWs and/or Jews?

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Re: What size did Hitler want his Polish puppet state to be?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 14 May 2020 06:01

Hi wm,

It may be anecdotal evidence, but it is evidence from a primary witness none the less.

What makes you think it is a "fabularized account"?

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: What size did Hitler want his Polish puppet state to be?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 14 May 2020 06:10

Hi Futurist,

The Allies had no legal responsibility in this matter and it is unreasonable to expect them to subsidize the German war effort against themselves.

In going to war; the Germans automatically took responsibility for the well being of POWs and the civil population of occupied territories.

That is where legal responsibility begins and ends.

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Sid.

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Re: What size did Hitler want his Polish puppet state to be?

Post by Futurist » 14 May 2020 06:18

Sid Guttridge wrote:
14 May 2020 06:10
Hi Futurist,

The Allies had no legal responsibility in this matter and it is unreasonable to expect them to subsidize the German war effort against themselves.

In going to war; the Germans automatically took responsibility for the well being of POWs and the civil population of occupied territories.

That is where legal responsibility begins and ends.

Cheers,

Sid.
This wouldn't have been a case of them subsidizing the German war effort, though. Rather, this would have simply been a case of preventing innocent people from dying from starvation or from getting slaughtered by the Nazis.

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Re: What size did Hitler want his Polish puppet state to be?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 14 May 2020 06:39

Hi futurist,

No, it would have been a subsidy for the German war effort at the Allies' own expense. The obligation to feed POWs and occupied populations was legally 100% German. Any resources for this had to come from German resources. Responsibility was entirely theirs in international law.

Cheers,

Sid

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Re: What size did Hitler want his Polish puppet state to be?

Post by Futurist » 14 May 2020 07:23

But if the Germans were simply going to murder them or let them starve en masse, then the Germans wouldn't actually be wasting any of their own resources on them (well, other than their stocks of poison gas), now would they?

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Re: What size did Hitler want his Polish puppet state to be?

Post by wm » 14 May 2020 08:00

Futurist wrote:
14 May 2020 05:52
How many additional people (especially Soviet POWs and Jews) do you think that the Nazis could have fed (in terms of actual capability to feed these people) had the Nazis actually had the desire to feed these people? Basically, I want to know just how many additional people could have been fed by the Nazis without actually jeopardizing the Nazi war effort
It would change nothing, the German objectively didn't have enough food for everybody.
The Poles, the Jews, the POWs (in that order) were a the end of their food queue so they were starving, the food didn't travel that far.
The Germans didn't do that from spite, they sincerely believed the "less valuable" people should have been sacrificed first.
The best proof of that is the fact German civilians had to suffer too, their food rations were low, low quality, and harmful to their health in the long term.
Poles in the rural areas (where for obvious reasons food was cheap and plentiful) ate better that the Berliners.

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Re: What size did Hitler want his Polish puppet state to be?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 14 May 2020 10:36

Hi Futurist,

So? That doesn't in any way alter the balance of responsibilities. Nor does it alter the fact that sending food would simply subsidize the German war economy to do something it was obliged to do anyway. Germans would eat better as a result.

Why is the fact that the Germans may or may not choose to cause the deaths of innocent people in their custody, for whom they have full responsibility under international laws they themselves have signed up to, in any way the legal responsibility of the Allies?

Either there is international law or their isn't. You are simply letting the Germans, who are the presumed perpetrators in this, off the hook by allowing them to ignore some of their basic tenets.

If they couldn't uphold their obligations under international laws, they either shouldn't have signed up to them, or shouldn't have gone to war in the first place. It's not as if the Jews, Poles or Russians had mounted a surprise attack on them, is it?

Your proposition is simply to appease a hostage taker. This would undermine international law and encourage repetitions to the detriment of all.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: What size did Hitler want his Polish puppet state to be?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 14 May 2020 10:54

Hi wm,

When did the first German civilians starve to death?

A quick trawl of the internet finds no reference to this as a subject at all for WWII, just WWI. At the end of the war it was the Dutch under German rule who were starving to death, not the Germans themselves.

The deaths of several million Soviet POWs was an act of pure malice. The Germans had an absolute obligation to feed them. Under international law POWs have to receive the same nutrition as the holding power's civil population.

You claim that rural Poles ate better than Berliners. That is possible. However, what is your evidence for this? Did you post that because you presume it might well be true, or do you have some actual evidence, preferably not of the anecdotal variety you have been dismissive of elsewhere?

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: What size did Hitler want his Polish puppet state to be?

Post by Futurist » 15 May 2020 00:38

Sid Guttridge wrote:
14 May 2020 10:36
Hi Futurist,

So? That doesn't in any way alter the balance of responsibilities. Nor does it alter the fact that sending food would simply subsidize the German war economy to do something it was obliged to do anyway. Germans would eat better as a result.

Why is the fact that the Germans may or may not choose to cause the deaths of innocent people in their custody, for whom they have full responsibility under international laws they themselves have signed up to, in any way the legal responsibility of the Allies?

Either there is international law or their isn't. You are simply letting the Germans, who are the presumed perpetrators in this, off the hook by allowing them to ignore some of their basic tenets.

If they couldn't uphold their obligations under international laws, they either shouldn't have signed up to them, or shouldn't have gone to war in the first place. It's not as if the Jews, Poles or Russians had mounted a surprise attack on them, is it?

Your proposition is simply to appease a hostage taker. This would undermine international law and encourage repetitions to the detriment of all.

Cheers,

Sid.
Sid, are you suggesting that it was likewise wrong for Israel to pay Communist Romania to allow its Jews to emigrate during the Cold War?

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Re: What size did Hitler want his Polish puppet state to be?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 15 May 2020 08:03

Hi Futurist,

I haven't even mentioned Romania in the Cold War.

Why is that relevant? Were the Romanian Communists threatening to kill the country's Jews?

I thought Jews were in the first post war Romanian Communist Governments that agreed the initial emigration quotas.

Cheers,

Sid.

A mystified Sid.

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Re: What size did Hitler want his Polish puppet state to be?

Post by Futurist » 15 May 2020 23:41

Sid Guttridge wrote:
15 May 2020 08:03
Hi Futurist,

I haven't even mentioned Romania in the Cold War.

Why is that relevant? Were the Romanian Communists threatening to kill the country's Jews?

I thought Jews were in the first post war Romanian Communist Governments that agreed the initial emigration quotas.

Cheers,

Sid.

A mystified Sid.
The reason that I mentioned Cold War Romania here is because paying a country to allow any of its citizens to emigrate could be viewed as being a form of bribery and thus as appeasement for bad behavior (since countries aren't actually supposed to prevent their citizens from emigrating).

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