Why was there no plebiscite held in the Polish Corridor in 1919-1921?

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Why was there no plebiscite held in the Polish Corridor in 1919-1921?

#1

Post by Futurist » 20 Sep 2018, 00:32

Why was there no plebiscite held in the Polish Corridor in 1919-1921 like there was in Masuria and Upper Silesia?

Was it because the Polish Corridor was a part of Poland before the partitions whereas Masuria and Upper Silesia were not? Also, was it because holding a plebiscite in the Polish Corridor would result in increased demands for a plebiscite in Danzig? Or was there another reason for this?

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Re: Why was there no plebiscite held in the Polish Corridor in 1919-1921?

#2

Post by Futurist » 20 Sep 2018, 00:33

Also, I certainly understand that some Germans moved to the Polish Corridor after the partitions of Poland. However, the victorious Allies could have tried excluding these Germans from any plebiscite in the Polish Corridor (as in, preventing these Germans from voting in this plebiscite).


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Re: Why was there no plebiscite held in the Polish Corridor in 1919-1921?

#3

Post by Gorque » 20 Sep 2018, 03:53

I would opine that the granting of the corridor to the nascent Polish state was a foregone conclusion. Of course, this is just my uninformed opinion and I'm sure a more informed AHF poster will shortly wade in and correct me on the above. I sort of like getting older as I no longer give a shit whether or not how my my well-intentioned, but uninformed opinion, hews to the general consensus.

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Re: Why was there no plebiscite held in the Polish Corridor in 1919-1921?

#4

Post by GregSingh » 20 Sep 2018, 08:24

Exactly.
According to Treaty of Versailles, Section VIII, Article 87, Germany renounced in Poland's favour all rights and title over the territory of "corridor".
The same Treaty stated that plebiscites will be held in those other areas.

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Re: Why was there no plebiscite held in the Polish Corridor in 1919-1921?

#5

Post by Futurist » 22 Sep 2018, 03:52

GregSingh wrote:
20 Sep 2018, 08:24
Exactly.
According to Treaty of Versailles, Section VIII, Article 87, Germany renounced in Poland's favour all rights and title over the territory of "corridor".
The same Treaty stated that plebiscites will be held in those other areas.
Well, yeah, but why did the Treaty of Versailles not establish a plebiscite in the Polish Corridor? Indeed, that's what I am asking here.

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Re: Why was there no plebiscite held in the Polish Corridor in 1919-1921?

#6

Post by wm » 22 Sep 2018, 04:39

Because the Corridor and access to the sea were declared to be necessary to the existence of Poland.

And actually, it was a pre-partitions Polish territory. The partitions were declared null and void so according to international law, Poland should have reverted to her pre-partitions borders.

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Re: Why was there no plebiscite held in the Polish Corridor in 1919-1921?

#7

Post by pugsville » 22 Sep 2018, 05:56

Futurist wrote:
20 Sep 2018, 00:32
Why was there no plebiscite held in the Polish Corridor in 1919-1921 like there was in Masuria and Upper Silesia?

Was it because the Polish Corridor was a part of Poland before the partitions whereas Masuria and Upper Silesia were not? Also, was it because holding a plebiscite in the Polish Corridor would result in increased demands for a plebiscite in Danzig? Or was there another reason for this?
(1) the treaty doe snot mention a plebiscite for the corridor,

(2) the corridor was regarded as being absolutely required for an independent Poland.

(3) German sought peace on the basis of the 14 points in effect agreeing to the corridor at the start of negotiations.,

(4) the Corridor had a clear majority of Polish people.

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Re: Why was there no plebiscite held in the Polish Corridor in 1919-1921?

#8

Post by Steve » 25 Sep 2018, 04:37

In April 1919 the German cabinet considered asking for a plebiscite but decided not to because of a probable Polish majority.

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Re: Why was there no plebiscite held in the Polish Corridor in 1919-1921?

#9

Post by Futurist » 25 Sep 2018, 06:23

Steve wrote:
25 Sep 2018, 04:37
In April 1919 the German cabinet considered asking for a plebiscite but decided not to because of a probable Polish majority.
Why was the German government more confident about the plebiscite in Upper Silesia?

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Re: Why was there no plebiscite held in the Polish Corridor in 1919-1921?

#10

Post by Steve » 26 Sep 2018, 17:06

In the draft version of the Versailles treaty Upper Silesia was awarded to Poland. Not surprisingly the Germans were seriously upset by this and they had a very important supporter in the British Prime Minister Lloyd George. He thought that to weaken Germany to much would lead to French hegemony in Europe and he doubted Polish ability to ensure stable government. He also said that in his view Germany might throw in with Bolshevism if a harsh treaty was imposed on her. This was patent nonsense but in the climate of the time seems to have worked.

His preferred option was for Upper Silesia to remain German but when he could not get his way he compromised on a referendum. Germany had not signed the Versailles Treaty and it was thought vital that it did because what would happen if it didn’t? There seems to have been an unspoken agreement that in return for a referendum Germany would sign.

Lloyd George may well have had other reasons besides the rather odd ones he put forward; he was an extremely devious character. For example, he sold honours on a sliding scale of payment to raise money for his party. However, the sums in today’s money are so huge you have to wonder if there was more to it. A knighthood in 1920 cost £10,000 or £400,000 in today’s money. The business was run from a small office in London by a Maundy Gregory who had probably worked in British intelligence. A socialist politician who was investigating this disappeared never to be seen again

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Re: Why was there no plebiscite held in the Polish Corridor in 1919-1921?

#11

Post by Futurist » 19 May 2020, 05:27

Very interesting; thank you, Steve! Anyway, the German Cabinet really does appear to have shot themselves in the foot in not asking for a plebiscite in the Polish Corridor back in 1919. Weimar Germany waged a decade-long trade war against Poland afterwards but the Poles could quite rightly have asked "Why didn't you ask for a plebiscite in the Polish Corridor back in 1919?"

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Re: Why was there no plebiscite held in the Polish Corridor in 1919-1921?

#12

Post by Futurist » 08 Jun 2020, 23:22

wm wrote:
22 Sep 2018, 04:39
Because the Corridor and access to the sea were declared to be necessary to the existence of Poland.

And actually, it was a pre-partitions Polish territory. The partitions were declared null and void so according to international law, Poland should have reverted to her pre-partitions borders.
By international law, wouldn't Poland have also been entitled to Danzig?

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Re: Why was there no plebiscite held in the Polish Corridor in 1919-1921?

#13

Post by wm » 08 Jun 2020, 23:34

It was a grey area, Napoleon created a Free City of Danzig and the Poles agreed to that. Later the Congress of Vienna allocated Danzig to Prussia.
But as they say, where there's a will, there's a way.

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Re: Why was there no plebiscite held in the Polish Corridor in 1919-1921?

#14

Post by Futurist » 08 Jun 2020, 23:44

wm wrote:
08 Jun 2020, 23:34
It was a grey area, Napoleon created a Free City of Danzig and the Poles agreed to that. Later the Congress of Vienna allocated Danzig to Prussia.
But as they say, where there's a will, there's a way.
Why didn't Napoleon give Galicia and the Polish Corridor to the Grand Duchy of Warsaw?

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Re: Why was there no plebiscite held in the Polish Corridor in 1919-1921?

#15

Post by pugsville » 09 Jun 2020, 02:27

Futurist wrote:
20 Sep 2018, 00:32
Why was there no plebiscite held in the Polish Corridor in 1919-1921 like there was in Masuria and Upper Silesia?

Was it because the Polish Corridor was a part of Poland before the partitions whereas Masuria and Upper Silesia were not? Also, was it because holding a plebiscite in the Polish Corridor would result in increased demands for a plebiscite in Danzig? Or was there another reason for this?
Because a Polish state with access to the sea was agreed upon condition of the armistice negotiations, it was a concession the Germans offered as part of their seeking peace.

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