Would Pilsudski have allied with Hitler had he lived?

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Re: Would Pilsudski have allied with Hitler had he lived?

Post by Futurist » 17 Jan 2019 00:05

wm wrote:
10 Jan 2019 17:34
Futurist wrote:
10 Jan 2019 07:03
BTW, wm, why exactly wouldn't even a surviving Weimar Germany have tried to resolve its border issue with Poland by force if it would have been sure that Britain and France wouldn't intervene on the side of the Poles in any German-Polish conflict?
Well, Europe and Germany were changing, the old ways (war is the continuation of politics by other means) really were slowly becoming old news. Peaceful movements were massive everywhere.
I don't think Germany would have decided to wage a major war just to regain some territory. Especially that according to international law it would be pure aggression. Legally the lands were Polish forever.

Germany wasn't a nation of murderers as it was claimed later.
According to one source at the height of the Sudeten crisis, Hitler asked someone (Goebbels or Goering) about the Germans, and the answer was; Mein Fuhrer the Germans observe the events (leading to war) with leaden indifference. And at this very moment, he decided to choose peace instead of war.
It wasn't that easy wage wars even in Germany.
The Sudeten crisis carried a risk of war with Britain and France, though. In contrast, I was talking about Germany declaring war on Poland while knowing for sure that Britain and France wouldn't militarily intervene in this war.

As for aggression, Lithuania captured the Memelland in 1923 and Italy captured Ethiopia in 1935.

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Re: Would Pilsudski have allied with Hitler had he lived?

Post by Futurist » 17 Jan 2019 06:58

wm wrote:
10 Jan 2019 17:12
Futurist wrote:
10 Jan 2019 07:18
In regards to the Soviets, I believe that Churchill wrote in his post-war memoirs that there were railroads through Romania and Hungary which the Soviet Union could use to avoid Czechoslovakia and which did not pass through either the Romanian capital or the Hungarian capital.

Churchill sometimes wrote very ignorant things.
Laws of War
Rights and Duties of Neutral Powers and Persons in Case of War on Land (Hague V)
October 18, 1907
...
Art. 2.
Belligerents are forbidden to move troops or convoys of either munitions of war or supplies across the territory of a neutral Power.
He also wrote in his post-WWII memoirs that the Soviets believed that Romania would ultimately give them permission to move their troops and supplies through their territory.

Also, did Britain and France ever violate these 1907 rules? For instance, I'm thinking about Greece during WWI.

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Re: Would Pilsudski have allied with Hitler had he lived?

Post by wm » 17 Jan 2019 09:47

Well, invoking opinions of Stalin is like invoking opinions of Hitler. The USSR was even less based on rule of law than Nazi Germany.
They were ready to commit (and committed) any war crime or crime against humanity that benefited them.

As the rules were created in 1907 there wasn't that much time to violate them.

Germany wouldn't declare war on Poland; for that, a huge army and acceptance of the resulting long-term damage to Germany's economy were needed.
Remilitarization of the Rhineland and reuniting of the Saar region would be useful too.
Weimar Germany wasn't going to do that.

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Re: Would Pilsudski have allied with Hitler had he lived?

Post by Futurist » 02 Feb 2019 23:35

wm wrote:
17 Jan 2019 09:47
Well, invoking opinions of Stalin is like invoking opinions of Hitler. The USSR was even less based on rule of law than Nazi Germany.
They were ready to commit (and committed) any war crime or crime against humanity that benefited them.

As the rules were created in 1907 there wasn't that much time to violate them.
There was WWI, though.
Germany wouldn't declare war on Poland; for that, a huge army and acceptance of the resulting long-term damage to Germany's economy were needed.
Would Britain and France have actually been willing to put sanctions on Germany and keep them on Germany for decades had Germany invaded Poland with the goal of reconquering the Polish Corridor, though?
Remilitarization of the Rhineland and reuniting of the Saar region would be useful too.
Weimar Germany wasn't going to do that.
To my knowledge, though, both of these things were eventually going to happen even if Weimar Germany would have survived. Do you disagree with this assessment, wm?

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Re: Would Pilsudski have allied with Hitler had he lived?

Post by wm » 17 Feb 2019 22:03

American, British, French sanctions would be certain, even if only mandated by Realpolitik. The US wanted to introduce sanctions in response to Kristallnacht.
But I had the economic costs of waging war which made such a war unappealing.

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