What percentage of Polish Jews wanted to emigrate during the interwar era?

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Futurist,

You post, "What makes the US's pursuit of Lebensraum during the Mexican-American War much more moral is that, at least in the long(er)-run, the existing population of these territories and/or their descendants likewise significantly benefited from the US conquest of the relevant territories."

Except, of course, this expansion wasn't conducted for the benefit of the existing populations, whatever incidental later material advantages may have accrued, but for the benefit of we Gringos/Marungus.

US expansion westwards was no more moral than expansion in any other parts of the Anglo-Saxon world. In all cases the expansion was purely designed to be for the benefit of the Anglo-Saxons and their European fellow-travellers. Any benefits for the locals, (and I would contend that these were often considerable) were purely incidental.

I am a child of empire and served in Rhodesia. There was a reason why the first state-funded African secondary school in Southern Rhodesia was only created in 1958 - six or seven decades after the British pioneer column arrived. Even more shocking is Moczambique, which at independence had only four African university graduates after four centuries of Portuguese rule! Although the Cherokee adapted very well to European ways, they were still evicted from their lands. The Arabs helped the Allies in WWI, but ended up with an univited Jewish state in their midst nonetheless, etc., etc., etc...... The blythe assumption on this thread that one can transplant millions of Polish Jews to inter-war Palestine, regardless of its existing population, whatever the pragmatic reasons behind it, lacks morality.

So, let us not pretend that there was any moral aspect to British, US or other European expansionism. It was a purely pragmatic, transactional, amoral activity of the sort that the current US President well understands.

I am prepared to defend much about Anglo-American empire building, but let us not delude ourselves that it had a moral underpinning that took into account the interests or needs of the so-called "First Nations".

Cheers,

Sid.

[Futurist]

Of course the US expansion into the Southwestern US was primarily conducted for the benefit of "us Gringos". I'm certainly not disputing that. I'm just happening to say that the existing Mexican population of this region also ended up benefiting from this in the long(er)-run--not to mention additional Mexicans who subsequently moved from other parts of Mexico into these territories over the next 170 years, and there were probably an awful lot of those!

I do agree with you that the expulsion of the Cherokee should not have happened--and neither should the Arabs have been deceived about what exactly the Anglo-French were going to offer them if they were going to rebel against the Ottomans and evict them from this region during WWI.

BTW, is there any empire-building that you actually do believe had a moral character to it, Sid?

[Futurist]

@Steve: How many Polish Jews do you think would have moved to Palestine over the last 80 years had both World War II and the Holocaust never actually occurred? For instance, assume that Adolf Hitler chokes to death on a delicious piece of bratwurst or something like that in August 1939 or sometime earlier than that.

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Futurist,

That is unanswerable. We don't even know if Palestine would be available to them. Nor do we know what push factors might be from Poland because we don't know the character of the Polish regime. Finally, as most emigrating Soviet Jews did not even want to go to Israel, we can't even be sure that most Polish Jews would want to. Too many imponderables.

Cheers,

Sid.

[wm]

Evacuation plan for the Jews of Poland, Hungary and Romania

Ze'ev Jabotinsky (bottom right) meeting with Betar leaders in Warsaw. Bottom left Menachem Begin (probably 1939).
During the 1930s, Jabotinsky was deeply concerned with the situation of the Jewish community in Eastern Europe.
In 1936, Jabotinsky prepared the so-called "evacuation plan", which called for the evacuation of 1.5 million Jews from Poland,Baltic States,Third Reich,Hungary and Romania to Palestine over the span of next ten years.The plan was first proposed on 8th September 1936 in the conservative Polish newspaper Czas, the day after Jabotinsky organized a conference where more details of the plan were laid out; the emigration would take 10 years and would include 750,000 Jews from Poland, with 75,000 between age of 20-39 leaving the country each year. Jabotinsky stated that his goal was to reduce Jewish population in the countries involved to levels that would make them disinterested in its further reduction.

The same year he toured Eastern Europe, meeting with the Polish Foreign Minister, Colonel Józef Beck; the Regent of Hungary, Admiral Miklós Horthy; and Prime Minister Gheorghe Tătărescu of Romania to discuss the evacuation plan. The plan gained the approval of all three governments

Plan for a revolt against the British

In 1939, Britain enacted the MacDonald White Paper, in which Jewish immigration to Palestine under the British Mandate was to be restricted to 75,000 for the next five years, after which further Jewish immigration would depend on Arab consent. In addition, land sales to Jews were to be restricted, and Palestine would be cultivated for independence as a binational state.

Jabotinsky reacted by proposing a plan for an armed Jewish revolt in Palestine. He sent the plan to the Irgun High Command in six coded letters. Jabotinsky proposed that he and other "illegals" would arrive by boat in the heart of Palestine – preferably Tel Aviv – in October 1939.
The Irgun would ensure that they successfully landed and escaped, by whatever means necessary. They would then occupy key centers of British power in Palestine, chief among them Government House in Jerusalem, raise the Jewish national flag, and fend off the British for at least 24 hours whatever the cost. Zionist leaders in Western Europe and the United States would then declare an independent Jewish state, and would function as a provisional government-in-exile. Although Irgun commanders were impressed by the plan, they were concerned over the heavy losses they would doubtless incur in carrying it out.
Avraham Stern proposed simultaneously landing 40,000 armed young immigrants in Palestine to help launch the uprising. The Polish government supported his plan, and it began training Irgun members and supplying them arms. Irgun submitted the plan for the approval of its commander David Raziel, who was imprisoned by the British. However, the beginning of World War II in September 1939 quickly put an end to these plans.

[Futurist]

Evacuation plan for the Jews of Poland, Hungary and Romania

Ze'ev Jabotinsky (bottom right) meeting with Betar leaders in Warsaw. Bottom left Menachem Begin (probably 1939).
During the 1930s, Jabotinsky was deeply concerned with the situation of the Jewish community in Eastern Europe.
In 1936, Jabotinsky prepared the so-called "evacuation plan", which called for the evacuation of 1.5 million Jews from Poland,Baltic States,Third Reich,Hungary and Romania to Palestine over the span of next ten years.The plan was first proposed on 8th September 1936 in the conservative Polish newspaper Czas, the day after Jabotinsky organized a conference where more details of the plan were laid out; the emigration would take 10 years and would include 750,000 Jews from Poland, with 75,000 between age of 20-39 leaving the country each year. Jabotinsky stated that his goal was to reduce Jewish population in the countries involved to levels that would make them disinterested in its further reduction.

The same year he toured Eastern Europe, meeting with the Polish Foreign Minister, Colonel Józef Beck; the Regent of Hungary, Admiral Miklós Horthy; and Prime Minister Gheorghe Tătărescu of Romania to discuss the evacuation plan. The plan gained the approval of all three governments

Such a plan would be worthless if the Jews of these countries themselves would have been uninterested in it.

Plan for a revolt against the British

In 1939, Britain enacted the MacDonald White Paper, in which Jewish immigration to Palestine under the British Mandate was to be restricted to 75,000 for the next five years, after which further Jewish immigration would depend on Arab consent. In addition, land sales to Jews were to be restricted, and Palestine would be cultivated for independence as a binational state.

Jabotinsky reacted by proposing a plan for an armed Jewish revolt in Palestine. He sent the plan to the Irgun High Command in six coded letters. Jabotinsky proposed that he and other "illegals" would arrive by boat in the heart of Palestine – preferably Tel Aviv – in October 1939.
The Irgun would ensure that they successfully landed and escaped, by whatever means necessary. They would then occupy key centers of British power in Palestine, chief among them Government House in Jerusalem, raise the Jewish national flag, and fend off the British for at least 24 hours whatever the cost. Zionist leaders in Western Europe and the United States would then declare an independent Jewish state, and would function as a provisional government-in-exile. Although Irgun commanders were impressed by the plan, they were concerned over the heavy losses they would doubtless incur in carrying it out.
Avraham Stern proposed simultaneously landing 40,000 armed young immigrants in Palestine to help launch the uprising. The Polish government supported his plan, and it began training Irgun members and supplying them arms. Irgun submitted the plan for the approval of its commander David Raziel, who was imprisoned by the British. However, the beginning of World War II in September 1939 quickly put an end to these plans.

Just how large did they actually envision this Jewish state? All of Palestine?

[Futurist]

Hi Futurist,

That is unanswerable. We don't even know if Palestine would be available to them. Nor do we know what push factors might be from Poland because we don't know the character of the Polish regime. Finally, as most emigrating Soviet Jews did not even want to go to Israel, we can't even be sure that most Polish Jews would want to. Too many imponderables.

Cheers,

Sid.

Well, assume that a Zionist rebellion in Palestine would have succeeded in creating a Jewish state there and that the Polish government would have remained as anti-Semitic as it was in the late 1930s.

As for Soviet Jews, Yes, my own parents (though only my dad is Jewish--and a patrilineal Jew at that, not that it should actually matter) can testify to the fact that they would have preferred to settle in the United States but that they didn't actually get a chance to do this until March 2001. So, they moved to Israel in December 1991 instead, which is where both I and my younger sibling were born. The US largely closed its doors to Soviet Jews in late 1989 due to the sheer number of Soviet Jews who wanted to come to the US; basically, the US wanted to avoid becoming overwhelmed by this. I consider this a regrettable position, but I'm unsure if a different one would have actually been realistically possible back then.

Anyway, the US was unwilling to take in large numbers of immigrants from Poland between the 1920s and 1960s due to the immigration restrictions and immigration quotas that the US put in place in the 1920s. These immigration quotas especially hit Eastern Europe extremely hard--and this was done on purpose since Americans wanted more immigrants from northern and western Europe and less immigrants from southern and eastern Europe back then. So, whether or not Polish Jews would have preferred to move to, say, the US would have been completely irrelevant here considering that the US literally wouldn't have been an option for the overwhelming majority of them during this time.

[wm]

A quota for country were based on 2% of the U.S. population from that country already living in the US, so it's not true the Americans prefered some countries over others.

The Polish government wasn't anti-Semitic, it maintained its alliance with Polish (conservative) Jews till the end.
But it wouldn't mind if a million of two of Jews relocated themselves to Palestine as it regarded them as a dead weight on the economy and (maybe) a threat to Poland's security.

[Futurist]

A quota for country were based on 2% of the U.S. population from that country already living in the US, so it's not true the Americans prefered some countries over others.

Actually, it is true considering that it was based on the 1890 US Census and certain countries had much more immigrants in the US in 1890 than certain other countries had. For instance, Britain, Ireland, and Germany all had plenty of immigrants in the US back in 1890, but Russia, Italy, Poland, et cetera much less so.

The Polish government wasn't anti-Semitic, it maintained its alliance with Polish (conservative) Jews till the end.

What exactly did this alliance entail?

But it wouldn't mind if a million of two of Jews relocated themselves to Palestine as it regarded them as a dead weight on the economy and (maybe) a threat to Poland's security.

A threat to Poland's security in exactly what sense?

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Futurist,

Your description of your parents' situation conforms with what I understand.

Soviet Jews reaching Austria were asked where they wanted to go to. Most said the USA. However, the USA wouldn't accept most of them due to quotas.

This suited Israel, as it gave time to persuade many of the remainder to go to Israel.

However, the Jewishness of some of them was remote or questionable and Israel even had a few essentially Russian Neo-Nazis among them!

Cheers,

Sid.

[Futurist]

However, the Jewishness of some of them was remote or questionable and Israel even had a few essentially Russian Neo-Nazis among them!

It takes an awful lot of chutzpah for Israel to push the US to close its doors to Soviet Jews only to subsequently express outrage that some Soviet Jewish immigrants (such as patrilineal Jews) are insufficiently Jewish for it! Israel sometimes even requires these immigrants and/or their descendants to get their mitochondrial DNA tested for Jewishness if they actually want to, say, get married in Israel:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/rabbinate ... ontention/

As for Neo-Nazis in Israel, Yep, Israel did get a few of those:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 96392.html

Of course, even following the traditional Jewish matrilineal rule does not prevent susceptibility to Neo-Nazi sentiments:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Csan%C3%A1d_Szegedi

Csanad Szegedi was a far-right and anti-Semitic Hungarian politician in spite of him being matrilineally Jewish. He subsequently experienced an epiphany in regards to this after he was outed and became a devout and observant Jew.

[wm]

The Soviet Jews are Jews according to their genes or rather blood because genes have nothing to do with race - which itself is an unscientific term.
Culturally they are Russians seeking a better life in the West.

[Futurist]

The Soviet Jews are Jews according to their genes or rather blood because genes have nothing to do with race - which itself is an unscientific term.

How do define "blood" here?

Also, can't one tell if one is Ashkenazi Jewish with fairly reliable accuracy based on a genetic test?

Culturally they are Russians seeking a better life in the West.

Yep.

[wm]

Blood was genes before genes and their role was known.

[Futurist]

Blood was genes before genes and their role was known.

That makes sense.

BTW, can't present-day race be connected to genes? At the very least, I read (including by people such as David Reich) that there is a strong correlation between one's self-identified race and one's genetic makeup. See here, for instance:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1196372/