Poles and Baltic countries hypothetical question

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Poles and Baltic countries hypothetical question

Post by Futurist » 14 Jul 2019 02:56

Had the Baltic countries (after the end of World War I) decided to open their doors to large-scale Polish immigration as a way of boosting their population growth, how many Poles would have actually moved there?

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Re: Poles and Baltic countries hypothetical question

Post by wm » 16 Jul 2019 20:44

Peasants (mostly abjectly poor) would be willing but who is going to pay for it.
btw at that time, nobody thought about boosting populations, everybody had tons of unemployed people.

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Re: Poles and Baltic countries hypothetical question

Post by henryk » 17 Jul 2019 19:35

There is a longtime Polish presence in Latvia. The Polish Army and the Latvian Army jointly defeated the Soviet Army in Latvia after WWI. Dzwinsk (Daugavpils) had been a major Polish city. However Poland recognized the large Latvian majority there and accepted it as Latvian.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poles_in_Latvia
Poles in Latvia
Total population 51,548 (2011 census)
The Polish minority in Latvia numbers about 51,548 and (according to the Latvian data from 2011) forms 2.3% of the population of Latvia. Poles are concentrated in the former Inflanty Voivodeship region, with about 18,000 in Daugavpils (Dyneburg) and 17,000 in Riga. People of Polish ethnicity have lived on the territory of modern Latvia since the 16th century. Most[specify] have status as non-citizens of Latvia, as citizens of Poland, or as citizens of Latvia.

Ethnic Poles distribution in Latvia [3] 2008 est.
Daugavpils District population 4,609 11.9%
Daugavpils city population 15,606 14.7%
Krāslava District population 2,169 6.6%
Riga District population 2,734 1.6 %
Riga city population 14,456 2.0 %
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daugavpils
Daugavpils (Latvian pronunciation: [ˈdaʊɡaʊpils] (About this soundlisten); Latgalian: Daugpiļs [ˈdaʊkʲpʲilʲsʲ]; Russian: Даугавпилс [ˈdaʊɡəfpʲɪls]; Polish: Dyneburg; see other names) is a city in south-eastern Latvia, located on the banks of the Daugava River, from which the city gets its name. It is the second largest city in the country after the capital Riga
The town's history began in 1275 when the Livonian Order built Dünaburg Castle 20 km (12 mi) up the Daugava river from where Daugavpils is now situated. In 1561 it became part of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania and, subsequently, of the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth in 1569 (see Duchy of Livonia). In 1621 Daugavpils became the capital of the newly formed Inflanty Voivodeship, which existed until the First Partition of Poland (1772). In 1577 the Russian tsar Ivan the Terrible captured and destroyed Dünaburg castle. That same year, a new castle was built 20 km (12 mi) downriver. In 1582 Daugavpils was granted Magdeburg town rights. In the 17th century, during the Russo–Swedish War initiated by Tsar Alexis of Russia, the Russians captured Daugavpils, renamed the town Borisoglebsk and controlled the region for 11 years, between 1656 and 1667. Russia returned the area to Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth following the Treaty of Andrusovo (1667). It became part of the Russian Empire after First Partition of Poland in 1772. It was an uyezd center firstly in Pskov Governorate between 1772 and 1776, Polotsk one between 1776 and 1796, Belarus one between 1796 and 1802 and finally Vitebsk between 1802 and 1917 as Dinaburg firstly, as Dvinsk later during Russian rule.
As part of the Russian Empire the city was called Dvinsk from 1893 to 1920. The newly independent Latvian state renamed it Daugavpils in 1920. Latvians, Poles and Soviet troops fought the Battle of Daugavpils in the area from 1919 to 1920.

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Re: Poles and Baltic countries hypothetical question

Post by Futurist » 21 Oct 2019 18:02

wm wrote:
16 Jul 2019 20:44
Peasants (mostly abjectly poor) would be willing but who is going to pay for it.
Well, how did people pay for their voyages to, say, the US or Canada or Australia during this time?
btw at that time, nobody thought about boosting populations, everybody had tons of unemployed people.
The US actually received a huge population boost as a result of immigration until the 1920s. Probably the same was also true for Canada and Australia. As for jobs, well, the Zionists certainly didn't worry about mass unemployment in Palestine--did they? Presumably, their logic was that Jewish immigrants to Palestine would create additional jobs. Why can't the same logic apply to Polish immigrants to Latvia and Estonia?

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Re: Poles and Baltic countries hypothetical question

Post by Futurist » 21 Oct 2019 18:04

henryk wrote:
17 Jul 2019 19:35
There is a longtime Polish presence in Latvia. The Polish Army and the Latvian Army jointly defeated the Soviet Army in Latvia after WWI. Dzwinsk (Daugavpils) had been a major Polish city. However Poland recognized the large Latvian majority there and accepted it as Latvian.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poles_in_Latvia
Poles in Latvia
Total population 51,548 (2011 census)
The Polish minority in Latvia numbers about 51,548 and (according to the Latvian data from 2011) forms 2.3% of the population of Latvia. Poles are concentrated in the former Inflanty Voivodeship region, with about 18,000 in Daugavpils (Dyneburg) and 17,000 in Riga. People of Polish ethnicity have lived on the territory of modern Latvia since the 16th century. Most[specify] have status as non-citizens of Latvia, as citizens of Poland, or as citizens of Latvia.

Ethnic Poles distribution in Latvia [3] 2008 est.
Daugavpils District population 4,609 11.9%
Daugavpils city population 15,606 14.7%
Krāslava District population 2,169 6.6%
Riga District population 2,734 1.6 %
Riga city population 14,456 2.0 %
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daugavpils
Daugavpils (Latvian pronunciation: [ˈdaʊɡaʊpils] (About this soundlisten); Latgalian: Daugpiļs [ˈdaʊkʲpʲilʲsʲ]; Russian: Даугавпилс [ˈdaʊɡəfpʲɪls]; Polish: Dyneburg; see other names) is a city in south-eastern Latvia, located on the banks of the Daugava River, from which the city gets its name. It is the second largest city in the country after the capital Riga
The town's history began in 1275 when the Livonian Order built Dünaburg Castle 20 km (12 mi) up the Daugava river from where Daugavpils is now situated. In 1561 it became part of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania and, subsequently, of the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth in 1569 (see Duchy of Livonia). In 1621 Daugavpils became the capital of the newly formed Inflanty Voivodeship, which existed until the First Partition of Poland (1772). In 1577 the Russian tsar Ivan the Terrible captured and destroyed Dünaburg castle. That same year, a new castle was built 20 km (12 mi) downriver. In 1582 Daugavpils was granted Magdeburg town rights. In the 17th century, during the Russo–Swedish War initiated by Tsar Alexis of Russia, the Russians captured Daugavpils, renamed the town Borisoglebsk and controlled the region for 11 years, between 1656 and 1667. Russia returned the area to Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth following the Treaty of Andrusovo (1667). It became part of the Russian Empire after First Partition of Poland in 1772. It was an uyezd center firstly in Pskov Governorate between 1772 and 1776, Polotsk one between 1776 and 1796, Belarus one between 1796 and 1802 and finally Vitebsk between 1802 and 1917 as Dinaburg firstly, as Dvinsk later during Russian rule.
As part of the Russian Empire the city was called Dvinsk from 1893 to 1920. The newly independent Latvian state renamed it Daugavpils in 1920. Latvians, Poles and Soviet troops fought the Battle of Daugavpils in the area from 1919 to 1920.
That's very interesting! I wonder why more Latvian Poles didn't move to the Riga area considering that it is the center of Latvian life. Any thoughts on this?

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Re: Poles and Baltic countries hypothetical question

Post by wm » 21 Oct 2019 22:03

Futurist wrote:
21 Oct 2019 18:02
Well, how did people pay for their voyages to, say, the US or Canada or Australia during this time?
Voyages weren't a problem because at least some people could afford it. A huge problem was starting a new life from scratch.
It was doable in the US or Canada where the government was giving away land for free (or a small fee) and there was plenty of work everywhere.
It wasn't doable in Boondocks, Latvia because there was nothing there except angry Latvians.

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Re: Poles and Baltic countries hypothetical question

Post by Futurist » 21 Oct 2019 23:54

wm wrote:
21 Oct 2019 22:03
Futurist wrote:
21 Oct 2019 18:02
Well, how did people pay for their voyages to, say, the US or Canada or Australia during this time?
Voyages weren't a problem because at least some people could afford it. A huge problem was starting a new life from scratch.
It was doable in the US or Canada where the government was giving away land for free (or a small fee) and there was plenty of work everywhere.
It wasn't doable in Boondocks, Latvia because there was nothing there except angry Latvians.
Latvia and Estonia didn't have any free or cheap land that they could give away?

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Re: Poles and Baltic countries hypothetical question

Post by wm » 22 Oct 2019 01:01

They didn't since Terra Mariana was established there - in 1207.

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Re: Poles and Baltic countries hypothetical question

Post by henryk » 22 Oct 2019 20:12

Futurist wrote:
21 Oct 2019 18:04
That's very interesting! I wonder why more Latvian Poles didn't move to the Riga area considering that it is the center of Latvian life. Any thoughts on this?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_ ... an_history
Because the Riga area was not part of Poland: Swedish from 1629, then Russian from 1710.
Polish Latvia to Russia: partitions of 1772 and 1793.

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Re: Poles and Baltic countries hypothetical question

Post by henryk » 22 Oct 2019 20:23

Futurist wrote:
21 Oct 2019 18:02
wm wrote:
16 Jul 2019 20:44
Peasants (mostly abjectly poor) would be willing but who is going to pay for it.
Well, how did people pay for their voyages to, say, the US or Canada or Australia during this time?
Husbands went first, borrowing from relatives and friends, and then paid passage of their relatives and friends.
Cheap accommodations provided by prior friend and relative immigrants. Note passenger lists showing destinations of emigrants.

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Re: Poles and Baltic countries hypothetical question

Post by Futurist » 22 Oct 2019 20:28

henryk wrote:
22 Oct 2019 20:12
Futurist wrote:
21 Oct 2019 18:04
That's very interesting! I wonder why more Latvian Poles didn't move to the Riga area considering that it is the center of Latvian life. Any thoughts on this?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_ ... an_history
Because the Riga area was not part of Poland: Swedish from 1629, then Russian from 1710.
Polish Latvia to Russia: partitions of 1772 and 1793.
I meant after Latvian independence.

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Re: Poles and Baltic countries hypothetical question

Post by henryk » 23 Oct 2019 20:11

Why would they leave the Daugavpils area?
This is where their families, relatives and friends lived, with Polish language schools, Polish language churches, Polish language Social Center, Polish language shopping, Polish language arts and culture, Polish language employment, no improved economic benefit.

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Re: Poles and Baltic countries hypothetical question

Post by Sid Guttridge » 24 Oct 2019 00:55

This is a non-starter.

The Baltic people's are not Slavs. They had only just got rid of centuries of Russian rule
They are hardly likely to welcome mass Polish immigration.

Besides, Lithuania and Poland were in dispute over Vilnius on ethnic and historical grounds.

Cheers,

Sid

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Re: Poles and Baltic countries hypothetical question

Post by Futurist » 24 Oct 2019 05:05

henryk wrote:
23 Oct 2019 20:11
Why would they leave the Daugavpils area?
This is where their families, relatives and friends lived, with Polish language schools, Polish language churches, Polish language Social Center, Polish language shopping, Polish language arts and culture, Polish language employment, no improved economic benefit.
Economic prospects weren't better in Riga? After all, Riga was the Latvian capital rather than some provincial backwater.

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Re: Poles and Baltic countries hypothetical question

Post by Sid Guttridge » 24 Oct 2019 13:43

I would suggest that what-if scenarios are only worth serious attention if they were practicable. This one is not.

All the new countries of east/central Europe were hypersensitive about their national identities and their newly won independence. Historically the Poles were an imperial power to many of them and not very welcome, especially in Lithuania, whose ancient capital of Vilnius was already in Polish hands. Latvians were not a strong majority in their own country and the Estonians had no common border with Poland at all.

Just as it was impracticable of Angela Merkel to expect the countries of East/central Europe willingly to accept Middle Eastern immigrants a couple of years ago, because they had only just managed to regain their national sovereignty from the USSR, so it is equally impracticable to expect the Baltic States to voluntarily enlist Polish immigrants after they had only just managed to escape the clutches of Imperial Russia.

Cheers,

Sid.

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