Thoughts on Chaim Rumkowski (the head of the Lodz Ghetto during WWII)?

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Re: Thoughts on Chaim Rumkowski (the head of the Lodz Ghetto during WWII)?

Post by Futurist » 25 Jun 2020 20:06

wm wrote:
25 Jun 2020 19:48
history1 wrote:
25 Jun 2020 12:44
Since when was Polish law valid in occupied Poland? Nice try.
Ask the thousands of people so laboriously recorded by ansata1976. They all were sentenced according to Polish law for crimes committed in occupied Poland.
Would Rumkowski have been likewise sentenced had he lived? What if he would have subsequently moved to Israel?

FWIW, Rudolf Kastner was exonerated by the Israeli Supreme Court after his death--though that ruling is still controversial to this day, with some people believing that Kastner was, in fact, guilty of being a Nazi collaborator.

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Re: Thoughts on Chaim Rumkowski (the head of the Lodz Ghetto during WWII)?

Post by Futurist » 25 Jun 2020 20:07

wm wrote:
25 Jun 2020 19:42
Futurist wrote:
24 Jun 2020 22:07
Do you believe that what Traian Popovici did in Chernivtsi was wrong? He had to decide which Jews will live or die and was able to save a third of Chernivtsi's Jewish community from the Holocaust but not the rest of Chernivtsi's Jewish community.
In 1941 Popovici prevented the relocation of some Jews from Bukowina to Transnistria. In 1941 the Holocaust didn't exist yet so he didn't really save them from the Holocaust.
After all, in the end the Jews in Bukowina could have been killed and the Jews in Transnistria spared. That was something he couldn't possibly know in 1941.
Wasn't Antonescu already killing Jews in Transnistria in 1941, though?

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Re: Thoughts on Chaim Rumkowski (the head of the Lodz Ghetto during WWII)?

Post by wm » 25 Jun 2020 21:05

As far as I know, most killings in Transnistria happened after his action (for example Odessa was in October 1941),
The Jewish Virtual Library writes the Chernivtsi ghetto was an overcrowded cesspool unfit for human living, so it wasn't that clear if Chernivtsi or Transnistria was a better choice.

Rumkowski would be killed by his "own" Jews, there is no doubt about it. In Poland Jews were prosecuted reluctantly, some were, most of them were judged by their own honor courts that dispensed moral judgments.

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Re: Thoughts on Chaim Rumkowski (the head of the Lodz Ghetto during WWII)?

Post by Futurist » 25 Jun 2020 21:24

wm wrote:
25 Jun 2020 21:05
As far as I know, most killings in Transnistria happened after his action (for example Odessa was in October 1941),
The Jewish Virtual Library writes the Chernivtsi ghetto was an overcrowded cesspool unfit for human living, so it wasn't that clear if Chernivtsi or Transnistria was a better choice.

Rumkowski would be killed by his "own" Jews, there is no doubt about it. In Poland Jews were prosecuted reluctantly, some were, most of them were judged by their own honor courts that dispensed moral judgments.
I wonder if Rumkowski would have still been killed had the July 20th Plot actually succeeded, though.

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Re: Thoughts on Chaim Rumkowski (the head of the Lodz Ghetto during WWII)?

Post by wm » 10 Jul 2020 21:40

Ask yourself, what would you do, if he deported your children.

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Re: Thoughts on Chaim Rumkowski (the head of the Lodz Ghetto during WWII)?

Post by Futurist » 11 Jul 2020 19:03

I'd hate him, but I would at least understand it if he did it in order to save a part of the Jewish community as opposed to condemning everyone to certain death.

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Re: Thoughts on Chaim Rumkowski (the head of the Lodz Ghetto during WWII)?

Post by history1 » 12 Jul 2020 13:34

Futurist wrote:
11 Jul 2020 19:03
I'd hate him, but I would at least understand it if he did it in order to save a part of the Jewish community as opposed to condemning everyone to certain death.
That is what he did/planned, to save the bigger part by sacrifying a smaller part. The first victims of this procedure were anyway Jews from abroad, eg. Austria or Germany. Because when they arrived there Polish Jews did hold already the best positions.

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Re: Thoughts on Chaim Rumkowski (the head of the Lodz Ghetto during WWII)?

Post by wm » 12 Jul 2020 18:17

I don't think so, the victims invariably were non-productive people, i.e., old or sick people, and children. The German Jews were actually believed to be more productive, more disciplined than the locals.
They were selected by Junderat officials or special medical commissions that went from house to house and selected victims.

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Re: Thoughts on Chaim Rumkowski (the head of the Lodz Ghetto during WWII)?

Post by history1 » 13 Jul 2020 17:42

"the victims invariably were non-productive people"

Not entirely correct. Read the files of the ghetto and you will recognise that many were sent away for criminal activities. Starting from theft to gang memberships, etc...

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Re: Thoughts on Chaim Rumkowski (the head of the Lodz Ghetto during WWII)?

Post by wm » 14 Jul 2020 22:45

In this case anti-social people.

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Re: Thoughts on Chaim Rumkowski (the head of the Lodz Ghetto during WWII)?

Post by history1 » 15 Jul 2020 13:35

wm wrote:
14 Jul 2020 22:45
In this case anti-social people.
In this case eg. people who tried not to die due to starvation by stealing a piece of bread or who got caught smuggling food from outside the ghetto.

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Re: Thoughts on Chaim Rumkowski (the head of the Lodz Ghetto during WWII)?

Post by wm » 15 Jul 2020 13:53

That was in the Warsaw Ghetto.
In the Łódź Ghetto all food was distributed and wasn't possible to steal it (as for example from a stall or a shop window - there weren't any). Similiarily smugling wasn't a thing either.
The ghetto was guarded well by both German and Jewish police, and was surrendered by hostile, populated by Germans districts.

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Re: Thoughts on Chaim Rumkowski (the head of the Lodz Ghetto during WWII)?

Post by Hans1906 » 15 Jul 2020 16:02

Good afternoon wm,

my so-called inner voice speaks to me through another provocative thread, and I always rely on this inner voice.

I am not able to add anything to this topic, but I have seen such topics in many internet forums already pursued years ago, always with a bad feeling.
If I'm wrong about this, I'm sorry, but I would never get involved in this.

Just my personal opinion, which I will always defend.

Hans1906

* If you are able to read between all the lines, it becomes clear more than quickly that you are provocateurs at work.
* For my taste not the best style in an internet forum...
* Whereby "taste" is not always my topic, but this is a personal problem on my part.
Es ist im Leben wichtig, viel zu wissen.
Manchmal ist es noch wichtiger, zu wissen, daß man nichts weiß.

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Re: Thoughts on Chaim Rumkowski (the head of the Lodz Ghetto during WWII)?

Post by history1 » 15 Jul 2020 18:51

wm wrote:
15 Jul 2020 13:53
[...]
In the Łódź Ghetto all food was distributed and wasn't possible to steal it (as for example from a stall or a shop window - there weren't any). Similiarily smugling wasn't a thing either.
You obviously didn´t read a single file from the ghetto which are hold in the archive in Lodz
wm wrote:
15 Jul 2020 13:53
The ghetto was guarded well by both German and Jewish police, and was surrendered by hostile, populated by Germans districts.
Are you trying to protect the good name of Poland? ROFL!
POLISH BLUE POLICE did guard the ghetto surroundings/wall.

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Re: Thoughts on Chaim Rumkowski (the head of the Lodz Ghetto during WWII)?

Post by wm » 15 Jul 2020 20:55

Please that ignorant.
Łódź was annexed by Germany, the Poles mostly expelled, the Jews ghettoized. There were any Blue Police there.

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