polish Germans in polish army

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Mannet
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polish Germans in polish army

#1

Post by Mannet » 05 Mar 2020, 18:22

Hi,
I'm searching for informations about polish Germans, that served in polish army in 1939. Most of them were in Korpus Ochrony Pogranicza (border protection corps)

Sid Guttridge
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Re: polish Germans in polish army

#2

Post by Sid Guttridge » 05 Mar 2020, 20:29

Hi Mannet,

My understanding is that the border troops, at least in the east, were all Poles. (It makes no sense to trust border troops of the same nationality as the neighbouring country to safeguard the common border if they might have divided loyalties.)

I also recall that Poland, like other central European countries with unreliable minorities, sent its German conscripts to serve in divisions raised in the east of the country (and Ukrainians and others from the east to do military service in divisions raised in the west). This "divide and rule" policy limited the possibility of them meeting fellow Germans in the field and testing any divided loyalties.

However, I would suggest that you probably need a Pole to give you a definitive answer.

Cheers,

Sid.


gebhk
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Re: polish Germans in polish army

#3

Post by gebhk » 06 Mar 2020, 11:03

Hi Mannet

I hoped for a reply from someone more knowledgeable than myself so held back, but here goes. There are, as far as I know, no reliable statistical data on the subject for the obvious reasons, so we are talking guesstimates. These guesstimates are complicated by a number of factors including the facts that Polish mobilisation was never completed and those mobilised in many cases did not reach their designated units; the areas with the highest potential for ethnic German recruits were also the ones overrun most quickly by the invaders and finally the impact of encouragement of potential recruits by legal and illegal German organisations to avoid military service.

With that in mind, it is estimated that some 8-10k ethnic Germans served in the Polish armed forces in 1939. About half, ie 4k were sent to the 'recreated KOP' (the peacetime KOP units were integrated into the general armed forces upon mobilisation) - Sid, you are right to a degree, about 95% of the KOP were Poles, but that does leave the remaining 5%....... The Germans, apparently, served mainly in the KOP cavalry and engineering units, making up to 20% of those formations. There is little or no evidence of desertion - no doubt partly for reasons of political awareness (or lack of it). Like their Polish companions the Germans would not have known that the advancing Soviets were their allies. There was, in any case, little opportunity to desert out east, as individuals in Polish uniform were likely to be murdered on the spot by roaming bands of local nationalists and communists, who would not have been much interested in the ethnic origins of their victims. The Germans in the KOP, therefore, shared the lot of their Polish colleagues during the actual fighting against the Soviets.

However, once taken prisoner by the Soviets, those who declared German nationality were repatriated to Germany where, following validation, they were sent home - and where, of course, they were subject to call-up to the WH as appropriate. Most KOP Germans interned in bordering countries were also eventually repatriated to Germany where the majority were called up and served according to their specialty and with the equivalent of their previous Polish rank. However, a significant portion of the 'recreated KOP' retreated far enough into central Poland (such as the KOP troops of the 'Polesie' Independent Operational Group) to come into combat with the WH in the final weeks of the campaign. Under these circumstances it is not surprising that large numbers went over to the German side.

Furthermore one should also not forget that there were Germans serving in the peacetime KOP which had been incorporated into the armed forces under the mobilisation plan. These troops were, of course, involved in the fighting against the Germans from the outset. Undoubtedly many went over to the other side but it is impossible now to put a number on the scale of the phenomenon. Perhaps the best known 'issue' is the virtual mutiny in the 'Hel' battalion of the KOP which was built on the cadre of the 'Sienkiewicze' KOP battalion, but consisted mainly of local reservists many of whom were Germans while of the rest, most had fathers who had served in the Armies of the Kaiser. A criminal investigation commenced but was never completed due to the surrender of Hel. No mutineers were, therefore, either convicted or sentenced.

Information on the other half or so who served in the regular armed forces are even more sparse. Again, significant numbers went over to the other side when the opportunity arose but no numbers can, at present (and probably never), be put on scale. To counterbalance this, there are plentiful examples of ethnic Germans who remained loyal to their new homeland. Without going into the sociological reasons, these were prominent among career and especially reserve officers supplied by the middle and upper classes. Many fell fighting in the ranks of the Polish armed forces against the WH.

Perhaps the most prominent example is Admiral Jozef Unrug, the commander-in-chief of the Polish Navy in 1939. Born Joseph von Unruh in Brandenburg an der Havel of aristocratic German parents, educated in Dresden and serving with distinction on U-boats in the Kaiser's Navy in WW1, Unrug volunteered to serve in the Polish Navy in 1919. His meteoric career there led him to become CinC by 1925, despite poor command of the Polish language (he was, of course, a native German speaker). Taken prisoner in 1939 (he was among others, a 'resident' of Colditz) he refused all offers of senior command in the German Navy and annoyed his captors immensely by refusing to communicate with them in his native German, insisting on an interpreter or using French! He remained, at his insistence, a POW until the end of the war.

That being said, there is consensus that most of the casualties sustained by ethnic Germans in the Polish armed forces, occurred during the fighting against the Soviets in the east of Poland following the Soviet Invasion on 17th September.

Hope this helps although I am aware it is very superficial.
K

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Steve
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Re: polish Germans in polish army

#4

Post by Steve » 07 Mar 2020, 00:56

Hello, I am basing this post on “The Polish Campaign 1939” by Steven Zaloga and Victor Madej.

According to the above book KOP was organised in 1924 “personnel were specially selected, and usually underwent training and assignment to line units being permanently assigned to KOP” ……….”the units, consisting primarily of ethnic Polish troops.” ……… “the KOP could quickly mobilise four division headquarters ………three mountain brigade headquarters ……….twelve regimental headquarters, thirty four infantry battalions, twelve cavalry squadrons, two light artillery battalions, and four engineer companies. These units incorporated reserve and National Guard components prior to deployment.” …….. “After mobilisation, the remaining KOP cadres and battalions deployed as seven under strength “regiments,” primarily under Brigade Polesie ……..to screen the eastern frontier.” ……. “They were grouped east of Grodno (the Wilno and Baronowicze units) and along the eastern frontier (the other units)” ……. “Of the twelve squadrons of cavalry, three operated under army group Grodno, and six as Cavalry Regiment West in Army Lodz.” In 1939 they also assumed control of the Slovak frontier. Would I be wrong in thinking no KOP units were stationed along the western frontier where the German minority mostly lived?

The Obrona Narodova or National Guard was a territorial force created in December 1936. The original intention was that it would consist of Polish volunteers suitable for paramilitary duties. In March 1937 it was taken over by the infantry branch of the armed forces and became integrated with the national training system. It numbered about 1,600 officers and 50,000 men organised into 11 brigades of infantry, one for each mobilization area, and a naval brigade on the northern coast. There were 82 battalions 11 of which would be absorbed or combined with active units. The Guard consisted “of fully trained men without mobilisation assignments and partially trained men, including those surplus to the draft quotas, and volunteers not yet subject to the draft.” You would expect to find Germans in the Obrona Narodova especially the units raised in the western part of the country as they were raised on a local basis. The Hel battalion (presumably named after the Hel peninsula) that gebhk mentions as having mutinied is more likely to have been an ON unit then a KOP unit. Maybe it was part of the Morska Naval Brigade (Gdynia) which was an ON unit.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/history/ ... olf-Hitler

http://brushesandbayonets.blogspot.com/ ... ional.html

Does anyone know if Polish infantry divisions were raised on a territorial basis? If they were which division would a man living near Stanislawow have served in during the September campaign.

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Re: polish Germans in polish army

#5

Post by GregSingh » 07 Mar 2020, 08:55

Does anyone know if Polish infantry divisions were raised on a territorial basis? If they were which division would a man living near Stanislawow have served in during the September campaign.
Mostly yes, but to be 100% sure you really have to do research on case by case basis.

48 Pułk Piechoty Strzelców Kresowych Stanisławów
49 Huculski Pułk Strzelców Kołomyja
53 Pułk Piechoty Strzelców Kresowych Stryj

All above regiments from this division: 11 Karpacka Dywizja Piechoty HQ Stanisławów

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Re: polish Germans in polish army

#6

Post by gebhk » 07 Mar 2020, 13:35

Steve

Going backwards:
Polish units were essentially exterritorial. What that meant, in practice, was that in peacetime recruits and officers were moved around the country. This was aimed at firstly unifying state identity among a politically, culturally and ethnically diverse population and, secondly, ensuring units had the best spread of skills - something that could not, given the polarisation of professions etc, be effected by local recruitment. In other words, very broadly, Western Poland had much higher rates of literacy, higher education and technical knowhow (eg vehicle drivers) while the East possessed a greater pool of skills in horsemanship and dealing with the exigencies of hard life and difficult terrain, for want of a better word.

On mobilisation, therefore, the backbone of the regular divisions would be the exterritorial element. However, the bulk of the reservists would be allocated to their local unit for obvious reasons. This would be tempered by such considerations as limits on numbers of national minorities and, above all, the need for filling posts with appropriately-skilled individuals. Obviously, the more exotic the skill, the more likely it was that its possessor could be called up by a more remote unit. This of course led to some (not so at the time) humorous incidents. One cavalry unit, for example, was sent a railway engine driver instead of a typist (the word 'maszynista' could mean either).

In short, if the chap you are looking for was a reservist, there is a good chance he was mobilised to his nearest unit, particularly if his skill-set was a fairly standard one. However, as GregSingh says, this is far from certain. If he was doing his national service at the time of the outbreak of the war, then the likelihood drops dramatically.

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Re: polish Germans in polish army

#7

Post by Sid Guttridge » 07 Mar 2020, 13:58

Hi Steve,

It was also my impression that the KOP was specifically deployed on the Eastern border, but my source (I was writing from memory) may also have been Zaloga and Madej.

This is a most useful book because it seems to be the only one in English that goes into the Polish army and campaign in detail. There is a very extensive and detailed Polish historiography of the 1939 campaign, but foreign authors seem incapable or unwilling to use it. Virtually everything else in English seems to be written from German sources.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: polish Germans in polish army

#8

Post by Sid Guttridge » 07 Mar 2020, 14:05

Hi gebhk,

My impression is that, at least in peacetime, this would apply largely to ethnic Poles.

In peacetime ethnic minorities, such as the Germans, seem to have been conscripted to divisions on the opposite side of the country.

However, I am not sure whether this would apply to emergency wartime mobilisation. Logic implies that the Poles would have liked to have kept their ethnic Germans away from the German Army in wartime, but pressure of time and circumstance may have made this impracticable.

Anyone?

Cheers,

Sid.

gebhk
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Re: polish Germans in polish army

#9

Post by gebhk » 07 Mar 2020, 14:59

The Hel battalion (presumably named after the Hel peninsula) that gebhk mentions as having mutinied is more likely to have been an ON unit then a KOP unit. Maybe it was part of the Morska Naval Brigade (Gdynia) which was an ON unit.
Steve - there is no doubt that the Batalion KOP "Hel" (also occasionally referred to as No 4 KOP Battalion in the literature) was a KOP unit and not part of the ON. While not part of the W2 Mobilisation Plan, It was formed on the basis of a separate order of the DeDOG (Department of General Command) of the MSWojsk (Ministry of Military Affairs) L.5241 of 13.5.1939 and was formally and practically under the command of the Fleet. Initially it was made up of the reserve company of KOP Regiment "Sarny" and the reserve and MG companies of KOP Battalion "Sienkiewicze". It detrained in the Hel Fortified Region (Rejon Umocniony "Hel" - RUH) on 15 March under maj Jan Wisniewski (previously CO KOP Battalion "Dawidgrodek"). The new KOP battalion was to form the backbone of the defence of the RUH.

An inspection by gen Bortnowski opined that the battalion (consisting of HQ and three infantry companies for a total of 12 officers and 430 rankers) was hopelessly undermanned to complete its envisaged mission and upon mobilisation it was reinforced with 2 officers and 64 guardsmen of the Hel and Fleet Border Guard (Straz Graniczna - SG) and 12 reserve officers + ca 600 reservists. In short, just over half the battalion consisted of local manpower which was euphemistically described as 'while adequate numerically, not representing a high combat potential, especially when facing a proximal threat'.

At full strength the battalion was composed of HQ, signals platoon, 4 rifle companies (10-13th) and a MG company (4th) with 2 batteries of 75mm guns (41st and 4nd); one AAMG platoon from 2nd Sea AA Artillery Battalion (Morski Dywizjon Artylerii Przeciwlotniczej - Morski DAPLot) and the "Hel" Border Guard Platoon, attached. This formation fought from the very first to the very last days of the defence of Hel (1st Sep - 2nd Oct 1939), with distinction by some parts of the unit, not so much by others - specifically the 12th and 13th companies formed from local reservists. Perhaps not surprisingly, the latter aspects are often glossed over or completely ignored by Polish accounts of the events. On 29th September parts of the 13th company mutinied while on the 30th, the entire 12th company. The mutiny was quickly brought under control with some of the members of 13th company being arrested and imprisoned on the immobilised gunboat 'Komendant Pilsudski'. The events were, according to the authors of Boje Polskie 1939-1945 (2009) and others, a significant factor in the decision to surrender the RUH on 2nd October.

As an aside, the battalion used with effect, a unique minefield on 30th September, composed of torpedo warheads......

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Re: polish Germans in polish army

#10

Post by gebhk » 07 Mar 2020, 15:47

Would I be wrong in thinking no KOP units were stationed along the western frontier where the German minority mostly lived?
Steve - depends what you mean by 'stationed'. If you mean, traditionally, in the sense of their peacetime garrisons, then no, none were located on the German border: the force had been created to police the volatile Polish-Soviet border. When the Polish-German border became an issue, the Poles initially considered extending the KOP to that area too, but in the face of German objections, the security of this border was left in the hands of the Straz Graniczna (Border Guard).

If your meaning of stationed is 'deployed upon mobilisation for war', then a number of KOP units were deployed to the German and Slovak borders. The KOP Battalion "Hel" described above and the two KOP infantry regiments (1 and 2) which, with other bits and bobs, formed the backbone of the Mountain Rifle Brigade on the Polish/Czech/Slovak border are some examples of units fighting the Germans from the very first day of the war. 33 Reserve Infantry Division, part of Independent Operational Group "Narew" was on the border with East Prussia.

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Re: polish Germans in polish army

#11

Post by gebhk » 07 Mar 2020, 16:44

Hi Sid

To recap my previous comments

Yes, the peacetime KOP was made up of 95% Poles. That leaves the other 5% of course, who were almost exclusively Germans - that being, in principle, the only national minority permitted service in the KOP.

Perhaps a quick review of the workings of the army may clarify.

In peacetime, the units of the armed forces formed mobilising units ('parent' units in Polish terminology) which occupied a given permanent location. In the infantry this was usually the regiment. The regiment maintained a skeleton professional cadre (who could come from anywhere in the country) and equipment stores to kit out a variable number of units on mobilisation for war. Each parent unit had a mobilisation officer (oficer mob) whose job was to keep the detailed mobilisation plan (mobilisation file - teczka mob) up to date and to ensure that all resources were available at all times and to put it into action when mobilisation was ordered. In addition 'active' units (which in the Polish Army made up an unusually high percentage) took in contingents of national servicemen for training. These contingents were recruited exterritorialy, for the reasons previously described. Once trained, they would then return home.

Once mobilisation was ordered/declared the parent unit would absorb reservists to fill out its ranks to a wartime establishment and build ancillary sub-units which did not exist in peacetime. These reservists would, off course, be in the main taken locally as far as possible for the obvious practical reasons. Once fully mobilised, the parent unit became operational and went into the field - ie got on a train and was transported to wherever it was needed in the country. Its peacetime garrison was either wound up once it had completed all its mobilisation duties or became a replenishment centre.

In short, an active division located in an area inhabited by a large German minority would end up with few or no German national servicemen in its current training contingent, a few polonised German career officers and NCOs and likely a significant number of German reservists. Whether it then went on to fight the Germans and when, of course depended on where it was deployed in the country. Given that virtually all the regular army fought the Germans the conclusions are obvious, I think.

As an aside relevant to the topic, it would appear that some reservists and career soldiers of German ancestry were given the option of continuing to serve in the regular army (with a significant chance of fighting Germans) or transferring to the 'new KOP'. No idea how common this was - the only confirmation I have of this is a conversation with an ex-Polish Army officer who told his CO he had no problem with 'fighting f.....g NAZIs' and stayed. Clearly around half either opted for or were ordered to transfer to the 'new KOP'.

It is a problem I can relate to. Growing up in the cold war period in the UK, I had to consider the possibility of having to fight my own countrymen if the CW went hot. Despite being born in England, I was brought up with a very strong Polish identity and the question certainly gave me some disquiet.
Last edited by gebhk on 08 Mar 2020, 16:25, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: polish Germans in polish army

#12

Post by Steve » 08 Mar 2020, 04:01

Hello Sid, yes good sources in English on the pre war Polish military and the September campaign are as rare as hen’s teeth. I find Zalogaq and Madej go into the matter in just the right amount of detail for me. I believe the book was reprinted in 91 but I have an 85 edition which very easily falls apart.

Thank you GregSingh for the sources, my Polish is not very good these days so it will take me a while to work through them. The man whose unit I am interested in told me a lot of years ago that he was called up in September. He boarded a train and moved west, eventually they got off and walked then an officer told them it was all over and to make their way home. He threw his BAR into a river and obtained civilian clothes thus avoiding being taken prisoner by the Soviets. He never saw a German but did see some planes in the distance that could have been German.

Gebhk, with regard to the mutiny by the 12th and 13th companies, would these men have been ethnic Poles? Given that the KOP was very largely stationed in the east presumably most of it surrendered to the Soviets and therefore most of its officers were murdered at Katyn.

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Re: polish Germans in polish army

#13

Post by gebhk » 08 Mar 2020, 10:35

I have an 85 edition which very easily falls apart.
Tell me about it! :roll: The main problem with the Zaloga/Madej book is that while it does a reasonable job of describing the Polish Armed Forces (and very useful for that it is too), the actual campaign is pretty much an addendum. Alas, even in Polish, despite a steady stream of monographs on various battles and skirmishes, no new comprehensive work on the whole campaign has appeared, AFAIK, since the publication of the PSZ w DWS Tom 1 (Polish Armed Forces in the Second World War, Volume 1) in the 1950's! I have often thought that we could do much worse than having that work translated into English, but have to confess, have baulked at suggesting doing it myself!

Steve - with regard to your friend, the added info gives us a timeframe. If it is accurate, it suggests he was mobilised as a replacement and sent to join his regiment in the field. To whit, you need to be looking to march battalions (bataliony marszowe) and/or replacement centres (osrodki zapasowe) in the Stanislawow area rather than the parent units.

With regard to the 12/13 companies, they were recruited locally and therefore would have had a higher than average percentage of ethnic Germans (whatever that is). However, the whole ethnic thing is, in my opinion of course, historically overdone to provide lazy explanations for complex issues. More relevant here are the situation and cultural background. Probably the most significant human factor was that these reservists had a high percentage of older men. This meant that regardless of ethnicity and politics, they had strong cultural ties with Prussia and even if they hadn't served in the armies of the Kaiser themselves, many had fathers who did. Older men are also likely will be less gung-ho, have more responsibilities (wives, kids, homes) and be more considering of the wider picture. This wider picture was that the campaign was over, the Hel base had been abandoned by the Navy and thus the RUH was serving no strategic or tactical purpose by 29/30 September.

Incidentally, at least one whole battalion of the ON also mutinied on the Hel peninsula (18th September). These guys murdered their CO when he objected, stole his watch and surrendered to the Germans. They tried to shoot the only soldier who did not acquiesce and set off to inform HQ of what was going on. This action led to the collapse of a sector of defence and the capture of some 1700 men from the battalion in question and others who were surrounded as a result of the gaping hole that had appeared in the defences. Given this was a volunteer force, it is unlikely to have had a high percentage of ethnic Germans and yet gave a far more egregious example of indiscipline than that of the 12/13 companies whose ethnicity is oft cited as the motivating factor.

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Re: polish Germans in polish army

#14

Post by gebhk » 08 Mar 2020, 16:21

Given that the KOP was very largely stationed in the east presumably most of it surrendered to the Soviets and therefore most of its officers were murdered at Katyn.
Steve - I think firstly you need to make a clear distinction between the peacetime KOP and the 'new KOP', the latter recreated (though incompletely) from reserves etc when the peacetime KOP was mostly incorporated into the regular army as part of the mobilisation plan March-September 1939.

The peacetime KOP units fought primarily against the Germans (captain Raginis who died defending his bunker to the last on the Mlawa fortifications is perhaps internationally the best-known example). Officers captured by the Germans would not have been treated any different to other captured officers. Complicating the matter are the reciprocal exchanges of prisoners between the Germans and Soviets based on the pre-war residences of the men in question.

The fate of the new KOP was more varied. Most were either killed or captured while attempting to fulfil the impossible task of defending Poland's eastern border. However, when the main KOP unit (gen Orlik-Ruckemann's Group) was finally disbanded on 1 October, some of its officer's managed to escape into the German zone. This included Orlik-Ruckemann and a number of his officers.

The KOP was the focus of much Soviet displeasure and the fate of captured KOPists was usually sealed. I doubt many got as far as internment/POW camps. Regardless of rank, most appear to have been shot out of hand. Expecting little shrift from their adversaries, many fought to the death. Mirroring kpt Raginis' desperate last fight at the other end of the country, lt Bolbott and his machine gun crews defended their bunker until it was dynamited by the advancing Soviets burying the defenders under the debris. Their bodies, probably, lie there to this day. Nearby, in a larger bunker of the complex, some 150-200 KOP soldiers were, according to locals, murdered after surrendering, their bodies never identified or given a decent burial.

Those that survived capture rather than at Katyn, ended up mainly in the Ostashkow camp from whence they were taken to and murdered in Kalinin (now Twer), their bodies dumped in 23 mass graves near Miednoye. Some 6,300 men were murdered, mostly policemen and KOP functionaries, 5,500 of them NCOs and EM rather than officers. I think it unlikely that these victims included many ethnic Germans as, if they declared their German ethnicity, even KOP soldiers were in the main repatriated back to Germany.

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Re: polish Germans in polish army

#15

Post by Steve » 08 Mar 2020, 17:20

By the By gebhk when reading your post for the second time (when getting old you need to read things twice before they sink in) I took notice about how you had been worried (as a young man presumably) during the cold war in case you were called up to fight. I can perhaps assure you that you never had any reason for concern.

From what you write it appears that you would have had relatives in Poland so therefore behind the Iron Curtain. It is unlikely that you would have been accepted into the British armed forces if you had relatives behind the Iron Curtain or if your parents were not always British citizens. This was because you could have been blackmailed over your relatives. Apparently no one was given this as a reason for their application to join being refused rather an excuse such as failing the entrance exam was used. When this policy ended I do not know. I have posted a link to Hansard from October 1968 when the matter was raised in Parliament. The Minister does not deny that this was the policy and does not say if the rule will be lifted or when it would be lifted.

https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hans ... peter-dera

I would guess that these days if your entire family had belonged to Isis and still lived in Syria you would get in.

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