Polish jews during the interwar (19-39)

Discussions on all aspects of Poland during the Second Polish Republic and the Second World War. Hosted by Piotr Kapuscinski.
Sid Guttridge
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 12:19

Re: Polish jews during the interwar (19-39)

#76

Post by Sid Guttridge » 12 Jun 2020, 20:27

Hi history1,

I was unaware that Jewish refugees were, as you claim, referred to as "enemy aliens" before war broke out. As there was then no "enemy", this seems improbable.

What is your evidence or source for this?

Cheers,

Sid.

Sid Guttridge
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 12:19

Re: Polish jews during the interwar (19-39)

#77

Post by Sid Guttridge » 12 Jun 2020, 21:07

Hi history1,

If we are going to pick over the exact status of the individual concerned, it should be pointed out that they were exempt from internment.

Canada, Australia and South Africa were self governing Dominions and set their own immigration policies.

Britain treated the inhabitants of its overseas territories so badly that the populations of every single one (except Ireland) multiplied several times under its rule.

I think you will find that it wasn't Britain that condemned the families to death. By the time they were killed, Britain was actually at war against the real perpetrator - Germany.

As I posted before, certainly Britain could have done more, but the idea that the British did nothing was undermined by you yourself when you brought up the Kindertansporte.

Cheers,

Sid.


Sid Guttridge
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 12:19

Re: Polish jews during the interwar (19-39)

#78

Post by Sid Guttridge » 12 Jun 2020, 21:19

Hi wm,

Yes, it does include trivial regulations. However, 300 over six years means that on average the noose around the Jews was tightened every week! And, as I said before, this does not include local restrictions.

Nobody declared the so-called "Holocaust" officially open.
It is therefore a moot point as to when it began. It was a continuum of rising brutality that led to differentially high death rates for Jews in custody from very early on, though on nothing like the scale of the later death camps.

The first murder of a Jew in Nazi camp custody occurred in May 1933 at Dachau. The following month the law was changed to make their custodians immune to prosecution. Given what followed, a reasonable case can be made that it began then.

On a point of information, the largest recipient of Jews in the Americas in the 1930s was Argentina, not the far larger USA. Over 1933 to 1945 it accepted up to 45,000.

Cheers,

Sid

history1
Banned
Posts: 4095
Joined: 31 Oct 2005, 10:12
Location: Austria

Re: Polish jews during the interwar (19-39)

#79

Post by history1 » 13 Jun 2020, 14:32

Sid Guttridge wrote:
12 Jun 2020, 20:27
Hi history1,

I was unaware that Jewish refugees were, as you claim, referred to as "enemy aliens" before war broke out. As there was then no "enemy", this seems improbable.

What is your evidence or source for this?

Cheers,

Sid.
Hi Sid,

my source is called "common knowledge I got thaught at school". But it´s of course also covered elsewhere, eg. in the book "Gestapo Leitstelle Wien - 1938-145", especially the Kindertransporte "case". Or use "Jewish refugees enemy aliens" in a search machine. You´ll get sure enough results.
Eg.:"https://blog.nationalarchives.gov.uk/co ... world-war/"
Or take the examples below:
48741_b429037-00863.jpg
servant.jpg
Cheers

history1
Banned
Posts: 4095
Joined: 31 Oct 2005, 10:12
Location: Austria

Re: Polish jews during the interwar (19-39)

#80

Post by history1 » 13 Jun 2020, 14:48

Sid Guttridge wrote:
12 Jun 2020, 21:07
Hi history1,

If we are going to pick over the exact status of the individual concerned, it should be pointed out that they were exempt from internment.[...]
further imprisonment.jpg

history1
Banned
Posts: 4095
Joined: 31 Oct 2005, 10:12
Location: Austria

Re: Polish jews during the interwar (19-39)

#81

Post by history1 » 13 Jun 2020, 15:04

Sid Guttridge wrote:
12 Jun 2020, 21:07
[...] As I posted before, certainly Britain could have done more, but the idea that the British did nothing was undermined by you yourself when you brought up the Kindertansporte. [...]
AFAIR was my statement that the UK did everything to keep refugees out from the country.
1. One does not select refugees according their appearance (preferable non-Jewish, because they would be easier to integrate).
2. One does utilise the allowed quotas and not the contrary.
3. One does not set age limits/requirements, especially such one which keep the majority of refugees out of the country.
4. One does not dismember famlies causing additional stress and psychological harm to them.

But as I explained already, I´m living in a country where refugee relief is very important and a "tradition" since long time. Already pre - 1900 Jews from Galicia did move to Austria/Vienna, that´s why so many Jews have places in the East as place of birth while emigrating from/ living in Vienna.

Sid Guttridge
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 12:19

Re: Polish jews during the interwar (19-39)

#82

Post by Sid Guttridge » 13 Jun 2020, 18:23

Hi History1,

Not only are all the enemy alien forms you show from after the outbreak of war, but even your link shows that it was only on 3 September 1939 that 70,000 people were interned as enemy aliens. That was the day Britain declared war.

So let us not have any more about Jews being declared enemy aliens before the war.

Furthermore, given that most of the 70,000 were Jews with German or Austrian passports, let us also have no more about the British doing nothing.

Your own sources are contradicting your position on these matters.

Finally, if Austria had such a good record, why did at least 18,000 Jews leave Austria over 1930-37, BEFORE the Anschluss with Germany?

Cheers,

Sid

history1
Banned
Posts: 4095
Joined: 31 Oct 2005, 10:12
Location: Austria

Re: Polish jews during the interwar (19-39)

#83

Post by history1 » 13 Jun 2020, 19:17

Sid Guttridge wrote:
13 Jun 2020, 18:23
Hi History1,

Not only are all the enemy alien forms you show from after the outbreak of war, but even your link shows that it was only on 3 September 1939 that 70,000 people were interned as enemy aliens. That was the day Britain declared war.

So let us not have any more about Jews being declared enemy aliens before the war.

[...]
Keep for a start in mind that those people were REFUGEES, and not combatants of the Axis.
And they didn´t come to the UK after Sept. 1st 39 but earlier.
Eg. https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/ ... rt-1938-40
And please explain why the Jew Israel Reich (anglizised "Rich") was considered a "non-refugee" and had to die in an internment camp in the UK?

history1
Banned
Posts: 4095
Joined: 31 Oct 2005, 10:12
Location: Austria

Re: Polish jews during the interwar (19-39)

#84

Post by history1 » 13 Jun 2020, 19:28

Sid Guttridge wrote:
13 Jun 2020, 18:23
[...]
So let us not have any more about Jews being declared enemy aliens before the war.
[...]
Did I ever state that? No. I wrote and that´s a fact that Jewish refugees were imprisoned in camps for enemy aliens in the UK for some time or even years (like Israel Rich).

history1
Banned
Posts: 4095
Joined: 31 Oct 2005, 10:12
Location: Austria

Re: Polish jews during the interwar (19-39)

#85

Post by history1 » 13 Jun 2020, 19:32

Sid Guttridge wrote:
13 Jun 2020, 18:23
[...]
Furthermore, given that most of the 70,000 were Jews with German or Austrian passports, let us also have no more about the British doing nothing.

Your own sources are contradicting your position on these matters.
[...]
Of course, the fact Britain did not place human rights first in the 1930s is well-known to anyone familiar with appeasement. Yet what is chilling about the research by the Refugee History project is that Britain shirked its responsibilities not simply by building walls, but with the far stronger barricades of petty bureaucracy. According to the report, there were an estimated 500,000 to 600,000 family and individual case files showing efforts to bring refugees to Britain before World War II. Of these, an estimated 80,000 were successful. In other words, a success rate of just 16 per cent.
Source: https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/u ... ureaucracy

history1
Banned
Posts: 4095
Joined: 31 Oct 2005, 10:12
Location: Austria

Re: Polish jews during the interwar (19-39)

#86

Post by history1 » 13 Jun 2020, 19:56

Sid Guttridge wrote:
13 Jun 2020, 18:23
[...]
Finally, if Austria had such a good record, why did at least 18,000 Jews leave Austria over 1930-37, BEFORE the Anschluss with Germany?

Cheers,
Sid
1. Source?
2. And why should they not? Between 1921- 1929 also 57.202 persons did leave the country and went to oversea as result of loosing WWI. Better trying to start a new/better life in overseas than starving to death. Also years after WWII our citizens did starve and had food stamps.
Or explain why US-citizens do ask for asylum in Austria nowadays or why do 11.197 British live in Austria nowadays? Don´t they like the country in which they grew up? Are the economy and social standards so bad/low over there?
Or another example: Why do Jews nowadays leave Israel and look out for a better life elsewhere?

history1
Banned
Posts: 4095
Joined: 31 Oct 2005, 10:12
Location: Austria

Re: Polish jews during the interwar (19-39)

#87

Post by history1 » 13 Jun 2020, 19:59

And in which way is this all related to "Polish jews during the interwar (19-39)"????

Sid Guttridge
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 12:19

Re: Polish jews during the interwar (19-39)

#88

Post by Sid Guttridge » 14 Jun 2020, 02:53

Hi history1,

Please re-read your own Post #62 on this thread. You will find that that is what you posted. That is why I have been questioning you on the matter of people being "enemy aliens" before the war. If that is not what you meant, then we can drop that aspect, as it is resolved.

The source you asked for can be found by Googling "Emigration from Austria. Jewish Communities of Austria." It contains a detailed chart of Jewish emigration for the period I mentioned.

I would also note that while you originally posted that the British did nothing for Jews from before the war, you are now saying that the UK admitted 80,000. 80,000 Is not nothing.

Throughout this thread, your contributions have been marked by overstatement. Please stick to the facts.

Cheers,

Sid

User avatar
wm
Member
Posts: 8753
Joined: 29 Dec 2006, 21:11
Location: Poland

Re: Polish jews during the interwar (19-39)

#89

Post by wm » 15 Jun 2020, 00:07

Sid Guttridge wrote:
12 Jun 2020, 21:19
The first murder of a Jew in Nazi camp custody occurred in May 1933 at Dachau. The following month the law was changed to make their custodians immune to prosecution. Given what followed, a reasonable case can be made that it began then.
I don't understand what do you want to prove.
My point was that Dachau was a relatively benign camp.
17 prisoners died there in 1935, 12 in 1935, 11 in 1936. That's a shockingly low death rate by standards of the era.

Even more, till 1937 there were no more than seventy Jews in Dachau at any given time.
The Jews in Dachau and the other camps weren't there because they were Jews but because they were communists, socialists, and other opponents of the Nazis.
That proves another my point that life wasn't that bad in pre-war Germany in comparison with other countries - even for the Jews.

Sid Guttridge
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 12:19

Re: Polish jews during the interwar (19-39)

#90

Post by Sid Guttridge » 15 Jun 2020, 06:49

Hi wm,

Dachau was "relatively benign" for Jews compared with what countries?

Dachau wasn't the only thing happening to Jews in Nazi Germany.

As pointed out above, there were some 300 pieces of legislation between 1933 and 1939 designed to restrict Jewish life. As a result, around 400,000 German Jews had applied to migrate to the USA by September 1939. This was around 80% of the Jews in Germany when the Nazis came to power and does not include those who found sanctuary elsewhere.

Cheers,

Sid.

Post Reply

Return to “Poland 1919-1945”