Polish pre-WWII borders and elections results.

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gebhk
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Re: Polish pre-WWII borders and elections results.

Post by gebhk » 18 Aug 2020 18:26

I do not think that Socrates was suggesting that the captain of a ship or a bus driver were suitable to run a country. I think that what he was suggesting is that you look at the set of skills that would be required to be a bus driver or run a country and then you pick a person with those skills.
Sorry, but all I pick up from the parable is that only seamen should be allowed to appoint a ships captain and only politicians should be allowed to pick a ruler and that, by extension, both these occupations are merely exercises in technical management. I disagree because whether it is a ship of the sea or the ship of state, we, the passengers should have a say in, for example, where the ship goes, what interests it serves and how its passengers should be treated.

As regards Churchill, it is hardly the preserve of amateurs to make mistakes when predicting the future. Without in any way singling him out, in much the same way, the opinion of Hugh Elles, MGO 1934-1938, that tanks had had their day, was a significant factor in the quality and quantity of tanks the British Army disposed of in 1939. Elles, a career officer and graduate of the Royal Military Academy and Staff College with a track record as commander of the Tank Corps in WW1 and the Tank Corps Training Centre afterwards, cannot be considered in any way an amateur. Nor was he a fool.

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Re: Polish pre-WWII borders and elections results.

Post by Futurist » 16 Sep 2020 21:56

Sid Guttridge wrote:
13 Aug 2020 00:03
Poland, Hungary and Slovakia joined a liberal democratic European Union in the 1990s. Since then the two former seem to be drifting away from liberal democracy.
And this isn't also true for countries such as the US--until at least this November? ;)

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Re: Polish pre-WWII borders and elections results.

Post by Sid Guttridge » 17 Sep 2020 02:53

Hi Futurist,

Worryingly, Yes.

It is clear that Trump doesn't believe in Liberal Democracy.

The question in November is, how much of the US population feels the same way, or has just used him as a temporary vehicle for its frustration with "politics as usual". They have now seen what he is really like. It is now, to borrow a phrase from the Republicans of the Lincoln Project, "Trump, or America"?

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: Polish pre-WWII borders and elections results.

Post by Futurist » 17 Sep 2020 03:33

Sid Guttridge wrote:
17 Sep 2020 02:53
Hi Futurist,

Worryingly, Yes.

It is clear that Trump doesn't believe in Liberal Democracy.

The question in November is, how much of the US population feels the same way, or has just used him as a temporary vehicle for its frustration with "politics as usual". They have now seen what he is really like. It is now, to borrow a phrase from the Republicans of the Lincoln Project, "Trump, or America"?

Cheers,

Sid.
According to FiveThirtyEight (it's a political predictions website that uses polling and statistics to make predictions), our odds of having a new President in January 2021 are around 75%. :)

gebhk
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Re: Polish pre-WWII borders and elections results.

Post by gebhk » 17 Sep 2020 11:00

a temporary vehicle for its frustration with "politics as usual".
Arguably, much the same can be said about the Brexit vote. Unfortunately, it is unlikely that the UK will be able to get out of the consequences, which look increasingly grim, any time soon. I have a deep-seated suspicion that there is no easy exit from the consequences of the Trump election victory either :( .

Given that few people seriously considered either Brexit or Trump would get the vote, I am not a little sceptical of learned predictions in this area :wink: .

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wm
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Re: Polish pre-WWII borders and elections results.

Post by wm » 17 Sep 2020 20:11

Futurist wrote:
16 Sep 2020 21:56
Sid Guttridge wrote:
13 Aug 2020 00:03
Poland, Hungary and Slovakia joined a liberal democratic European Union in the 1990s. Since then the two former seem to be drifting away from liberal democracy.
And this isn't also true for countries such as the US--until at least this November? ;)

Does any evidence of electoral tampering exist, or were the elections falsified? So how come Poland, Hungary, and Slovakia aren't democracies anymore?
Or "drifting away from liberal democracy" simply means that we, the people, are unwilling to vote for other people's pet ideologies?

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Re: Polish pre-WWII borders and elections results.

Post by Sid Guttridge » 17 Sep 2020 20:23

Hi wm,

Just to be clear, are you saying liberal democracy is among "other people's pet ideologies"?

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: Polish pre-WWII borders and elections results.

Post by Futurist » 17 Sep 2020 20:30

Sid Guttridge wrote:
17 Sep 2020 20:23
Hi wm,

Just to be clear, are you saying liberal democracy is among "other people's pet ideologies"?

Cheers,

Sid.
Yes, he probably is.

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Re: Polish pre-WWII borders and elections results.

Post by Futurist » 17 Sep 2020 20:31

wm wrote:
17 Sep 2020 20:11
Futurist wrote:
16 Sep 2020 21:56
Sid Guttridge wrote:
13 Aug 2020 00:03
Poland, Hungary and Slovakia joined a liberal democratic European Union in the 1990s. Since then the two former seem to be drifting away from liberal democracy.
And this isn't also true for countries such as the US--until at least this November? ;)

Does any evidence of electoral tampering exist, or were the elections falsified? So how come Poland, Hungary, and Slovakia aren't democracies anymore?
Or "drifting away from liberal democracy" simply means that we, the people, are unwilling to vote for other people's pet ideologies?
Yeah, there are liberal democracies and illiberal democracies. Illiberal democracies are defined here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illiberal ... of%20civil

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wm
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Re: Polish pre-WWII borders and elections results.

Post by wm » 17 Sep 2020 20:59

So we, the people, have no say in this.
We have to vote as the liberal democrats say, or otherwise, we will be declared the bad guys?

Actually, that was the axiom of Nazism and communism, that the learned guys informed by science knew better than we, the people.

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wm
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Re: Polish pre-WWII borders and elections results.

Post by wm » 17 Sep 2020 21:00

Sid Guttridge wrote:
17 Sep 2020 20:23
Hi wm,

Just to be clear, are you saying liberal democracy is among "other people's pet ideologies"?
Of course, it's a weasel term that means nothing.

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Re: Polish pre-WWII borders and elections results.

Post by Futurist » 17 Sep 2020 21:06

wm wrote:
17 Sep 2020 20:59
So we, the people, have no say in this.
We have to vote as the liberal democrats say, or otherwise, we will be declared the bad guys?

Actually, that was the axiom of Nazism and communism, that the learned guys informed by science knew better than we, the people.
Yep, sometimes the elite knows what's best for the people better than the people themselves do. At least, that was many people's impression, which is why the US currently has the President that it has--specifically because a lot of people here were fed up with our elite and wanted to stick the middle finger to them! :(

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Re: Polish pre-WWII borders and elections results.

Post by wm » 17 Sep 2020 21:09

Do you have any examples?

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Re: Polish pre-WWII borders and elections results.

Post by Futurist » 17 Sep 2020 21:12

wm wrote:
17 Sep 2020 21:09
Do you have any examples?
I gave you one; the 2016 election in the US.

As for the elite knowing what's best for the people better than the people themselves, I was being sarcastic here. Basically, this is what the elite themselves believe, but I personally don't necessarily agree with them.

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Re: Polish pre-WWII borders and elections results.

Post by Sid Guttridge » 17 Sep 2020 21:31

Hi wm,

That clarifies matters greatly.

It tends to confirm my original observation: "Poland, Hungary and Slovakia joined a liberal democratic European Union in the 1990s. Since then the two former seem to be drifting away from liberal democracy."

Cheers,

Sid.

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