Polish pre-WWII borders and elections results.

Discussions on all aspects of Poland during the Second Polish Republic and the Second World War. Hosted by Peter K
Futurist
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Re: Polish pre-WWII borders and elections results.

Post by Futurist » 30 Jul 2020 23:38

wm wrote:
30 Jul 2020 10:52
Futurist wrote:
27 Jul 2020 23:06
I was simply advocating a more progressive policy on LGBT rights; I think that Poland is doing fine in regards to a lot of these other things.
The problem is Poland isn't alone, the majority of countries on this planet are with Poland in this.
It's mostly allowed in the EU, the US, Canada, and Greenland. Even there, it was basically achieved by lawyer tricks and massive media campaigns.

Such (fancy) rights for a tiny minority are against basic tenants of all three leading religions on this planet.
You can't do that without destroying them and the associated cultures.
You forgot to mention large parts of Latin America as well as most of Australia, New Zealand, and Sub-Saharan Africa here. Anyway, huge parts of the Muslim world still believe in the death penalty for apostasy nowadays, but that doesn't make it good. So, Yeah, just because a lot of people believe in something does not automatically mean that their belief is actually good.

In regards to LGBT adoption, my own position is simply a realistic one. I'd rather see kids in orphanages and foster homes be adopted by loving, stable LGBT couples than not be adopted at all. I would not mind it too much if a state decided to give priority to stable opposite-sex couples in regards to this just so long as it also allowed stable LGBT couples to adopt any children that were left over afterwards. Maybe you should go online and try interacting with some children and former children who were raised by same-sex couples, including Finland's current Prime Minister:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanna_Marin

They'll tell you that this experience wasn't a particularly bad one.

As for religions, progressive and even some moderate and/or conservative Jews and Christians actually do try to be supportive of LGBT rights nowadays. However, even if they weren't, this would be irrelevant since we have and should have separation of church and state--as in, separation of religion and government. So, even if a particular religion opposes things such as LGBT adoption does not automatically mean that it should push for legislation to prohibit this. This might be similar to some religions condemning polyamorous couples; the fact that they condemn this does not automatically mean that they should push for legislation to prohibit this.

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Re: Polish pre-WWII borders and elections results.

Post by Futurist » 30 Jul 2020 23:45

BTW, a child raised by a same-sex couple can still find role models of the other sex. For instance, a child raised by a lesbian couple could have an uncle of theirs (specifically a biological and/or adoptive uncle) serve as a father figure for them. Likewise, a child raised by a gay male couple could have an aunt of theirs (specifically a biological and/or adoptive aunt) serve as a mother figure for them.

If I was a child and I had to choose between being adopted by a stable LGBT couple or remaining in an orphanage or foster home (or, for that matter, being adopted by an unqualified straight couple, such as a couple of alcoholics), then I would obviously prefer to be adopted by a stable LGBT couple. Honestly, this should be a no-brainer for anyone who actually thinks this issue through! :(

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RG
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Re: Polish pre-WWII borders and elections results.

Post by RG » 31 Jul 2020 07:39

Futurist wrote:
30 Jul 2020 23:45
If I was a child and I had to choose between being adopted by a stable LGBT couple or remaining in an orphanage or foster home (or, for that matter, being adopted by an unqualified straight couple, such as a couple of alcoholics), then I would obviously prefer to be adopted by a stable LGBT couple. Honestly, this should be a no-brainer for anyone who actually thinks this issue through! :(
Actually it is not a problem to find parents for children in Polish orphanages. There is more potential parents than "availlable" children. The problem relates to legislation, most children in orphanages have their parents and cannot be adopted. So there is no risk, that any child lose parents because of their sexual orientation. Of course, there is a group of children who can be adopted, but nobody (nearly nobody) want them (disabled, "old" taken from pathologic families). But I do not think that one-sex families would like the either.

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Re: Polish pre-WWII borders and elections results.

Post by wm » 31 Jul 2020 10:00

Futurist wrote:
30 Jul 2020 23:45
BTW, a child raised by a same-sex couple can still find role models of the other sex. For instance, a child raised by a lesbian couple could have an uncle of theirs (specifically a biological and/or adoptive uncle) serve as a father figure for them. Likewise, a child raised by a gay male couple could have an aunt of theirs (specifically a biological and/or adoptive aunt) serve as a mother figure for them.

If I was a child and I had to choose between being adopted by a stable LGBT couple or remaining in an orphanage or foster home (or, for that matter, being adopted by an unqualified straight couple, such as a couple of alcoholics), then I would obviously prefer to be adopted by a stable LGBT couple. Honestly, this should be a no-brainer for anyone who actually thinks this issue through! :(
I don't dispute that, but we have a problem, and we could solve it the hard way (the minority will force their views on the dominant culture) or the easy way (the minority will accept some inconveniences of life among others).

It's a small price to pay, especially that we are inherently unequal. For example you might be not as rich, talented, lucky, healthy, popular, or pretty as other people - and nothing ever will change that.

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Re: Polish pre-WWII borders and elections results.

Post by wm » 31 Jul 2020 10:01

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Re: Polish pre-WWII borders and elections results.

Post by Sid Guttridge » 31 Jul 2020 11:30

Hi wm,

You post, "we have a problem, and we could solve it the hard way (the minority will force their views on the dominant culture) or the easy way (the minority will accept some inconveniences of life among others)." I am no great fan of LGBT radicalism, for example, but it is difficult to see it imposing itself on the majority. Nobody is demanding that the majority of the population should becom L, G, B or T. They just want tolerance of all legal lifestyles and to be put on an equal footing with the rest of society.

You post, "it's a small price to pay, especially that we are inherently unequal. For example you might be not as rich, talented, lucky, healthy, popular, or pretty as other people - and nothing ever will change that."

Well, most of those are eminently changeable (i.e. richness) and the others are matters of perception (I.e. beauty). (Luck I discount). The point is that, at birth, everyone should have a reasonable chance to fulfil their potential in whatever direction their talents lie. This benefits society as the best people for any position will be more likely to achieve it.

Yes, we are all unequal. However, in many areas this is not a fixed situation. Donald Trump was born with a silver spoon in his mouth so large that the handle sticks out of his arse (as a friend of mine likes to say). Barak Obama was figuratively born in the wrong side of the tracks. And yet Obama had class and Trump doesn't. Both ended up as President. Nothing needs to be fixed forever. Society should be structured for the Obamas as much as for the Trumps to realise their possibilities.

Intolerant majority opinion is always a potential tyranny that has to be guarded against.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: Polish pre-WWII borders and elections results.

Post by Sid Guttridge » 31 Jul 2020 12:40

Hi Guys,

Remember when I posted;

"There is a clear authoritarian tendency in the Roman Catholic countries of Eastern Europe, most notably in Hungary and Poland, but also in Slovakia. There may be a Slavo-Catholic model developing that is distinct from the EU's traditional frugal north/profligate South divide.

Perhaps the divide within Poland is related to relative religiosity?"


Have a look at a documentary on YouTube entitled: "A new Crusade: Poland' s embrace of Catholicism and anti-LGBT ideology".

Cheers,

Sid.

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wm
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Re: Polish pre-WWII borders and elections results.

Post by wm » 31 Jul 2020 12:43

Obama's father studied at the University of Hawaii, earned an M.A. in economics, was a senior economic analyst in the Kenyan Ministry of Finance.
His mother was an American anthropologist with two PhDs.
If that's the wrong side of the tracks I would like some.

I meant that they are trying to impose their views on adoption on others,
not "that the majority of the population should become L, G, B or T."

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Re: Polish pre-WWII borders and elections results.

Post by wm » 31 Jul 2020 13:31

Sid Guttridge wrote:
31 Jul 2020 12:40
Hi Guys,

Remember when I posted;

"There is a clear authoritarian tendency in the Roman Catholic countries of Eastern Europe, most notably in Hungary and Poland, but also in Slovakia. There may be a Slavo-Catholic model developing that is distinct from the EU's traditional frugal north/profligate South divide.

Perhaps the divide within Poland is related to relative religiosity?"


Have a look at a documentary on YouTube entitled: "A new Crusade: Poland' s embrace of Catholicism and anti-LGBT ideology".
What it has to do with authoritarianism?
The author of the video is so ignorant he doesn't know Poland has always been a catholic country, and that Polish culture is inherently based on catholicism.
And see the statement at the beginning of this video.

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Re: Polish pre-WWII borders and elections results.

Post by Sid Guttridge » 31 Jul 2020 14:17

Hi wm,

You clearly haven't bothered to watch; "A new Crusade: Poland' s embrace of Catholicism and anti-LGBT ideology" because the investigator acknowledges both those things.

Have you any actual factual objections to what is said in this documentary?

"We want God".

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: Polish pre-WWII borders and elections results.

Post by gebhk » 31 Jul 2020 17:03

Poland has always been a catholic country, and that Polish culture is inherently based on catholicism.
the investigator acknowledges both those things.
And both are patently untrue. Firstly Poland was a country long before it was 'catholicised'. And over a thousand years later, the pagan culture remains very much in evidence at significant points on the annual calendar; even though its spiritual significance has been lost to many in the mists of time. Secondly, successive waves of new ideas and immigrations have also left their mark. At it's peak the majority of the influential szlachta were protestant and the Warsaw Confederation of 1573, putting into law the principle of freedom of religion in the teeth of opposition from the Polish Episcopate and the Pope speaks to its volume, strength and vigour.

At the same time as various groups immigrated (not least because of Poland's vaunted freedom of worship and religion) and/or were incorporated as Poland's boundaries shifted over time, their religions, worship and other customs left their mark - orthodoxy, Islam and the various Jewish groups being perhaps the most influential. Communism has to be viewed as a form of religion in this context too, of course.

So there is nothing 'inherently' based on Catholicism in Polish culture. It is a unique blend, like everywhere else, of internal development and external influence. There is, of course, no denying that Catholicism, one of these external influences, has had a powerful impact which has waxed and waned over the centuries and is, arguably, waxing in recent times. However to say that Polish culture is based on Catholicism is a gross exaggeration.

From this culture, people take what speaks to them and/or what is convenient. If Poles slavishly followed Catholic teaching, the cry of babies would keep the nation awake at night. Yet Poland has one of the lower birth rates in Europe (curiously, a common feature in 'Catholic' countries). So either European Catholics are extraordinarily sexually continent, or they adhere to the teachings of their church selectively. Given my experience of many Catholic friends in the UK, I suspect the latter, but that's just me.

However I still struggle to see what any of this has to do with the question posed by Greg at the start this thread.

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Re: Polish pre-WWII borders and elections results.

Post by wm » 31 Jul 2020 21:08

Please, Poland's history begins with that guy who accepted Christianity in 966. Earlier, we have a black hole where much later invented legends slowly levitate. There is no such thing as pre-Christian Polish history.

That the Commonwealth was tolerant doesn't prove that today Polish culture isn't based on Catholicism. The (unrepresentative) Warsaw Confederation happened almost half a millennium ago.

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Re: Polish pre-WWII borders and elections results.

Post by wm » 31 Jul 2020 21:45

Sid Guttridge wrote:
31 Jul 2020 14:17

Have you any actual factual objections to what is said in this documentary?

"We want God".
It was Either Poland will be a Catholic country, or it will cease to exist. a slogan from the Stalinist era.

I don't have mere objections I'm saying the documentary is a fake narration. What they show there are fringe politics, nobody cares about it, especially young people.

And really, Wałesa? He's nobody in Poland, a senile person uttering bizarre statements by the dozens. He became an incontinent firebrand after it was shown he cooperated with the communist security services and lied about it all his life.

That man with the cross, Robert Bąkiewicz, is the organization of the Polish Independence March, a unique (in modern history) grass-roots event. He's a hothead but a good guy.

The party he belongs to (Konfederacja) is the first one that threatens the stale and corrupt PO/PiS duopoly.
They rattle the PO/PiS cage constantly, and that's a good thing. And they are leaning libertarian - that's even better.
They and the newly emerging political parties and movements are the future, Wałesa is so last century.

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Re: Polish pre-WWII borders and elections results.

Post by Steve » 31 Jul 2020 22:11

Marriage which is overwhelmingly the union of a man and a woman was invented for specific reasons. The institutions main reason is to provide a stable unit in which the next generation can be brought up in and by en large it has an extremely long and successful track record. Both the mother and father are very important role models for developing children. The mother and father unit (whether in a marriage or not) is the bedrock on which western societies are built and anything that devalues this traditional institution may have consequences a long way down the line. There are several studies available on the internet about black family breakdown in the USA.

If the child is too brought up in a normal family environment then presumably one of the people in a homosexual marriage has to play an opposite gender role to what they are. How this will impact a developing brain may well make for some interesting studies but should this experiment be tried?

I find myself more in tune with the Polish view on these matters than with the prevailing British view. I think it is different in Poland and the USA but in the UK there is no mass broadcaster on television that I can think of that would dare support the sort of views WM seems to support. Free speech is a wonderful thing but spouting an opinion on a soapbox in Hyde Park is not the same as the BBC giving their view on the matter to the watching millions.

This link provides reasons as to why a father figure is needed in a child’s life.
https://www.all4kids.org/news/blog/a-fa ... velopment/

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Re: Polish pre-WWII borders and elections results.

Post by Futurist » 01 Aug 2020 02:52

Steve wrote:
31 Jul 2020 22:11
Marriage which is overwhelmingly the union of a man and a woman was invented for specific reasons. The institutions main reason is to provide a stable unit in which the next generation can be brought up in and by en large it has an extremely long and successful track record. Both the mother and father are very important role models for developing children. The mother and father unit (whether in a marriage or not) is the bedrock on which western societies are built and anything that devalues this traditional institution may have consequences a long way down the line. There are several studies available on the internet about black family breakdown in the USA.

If the child is too brought up in a normal family environment then presumably one of the people in a homosexual marriage has to play an opposite gender role to what they are. How this will impact a developing brain may well make for some interesting studies but should this experiment be tried?

I find myself more in tune with the Polish view on these matters than with the prevailing British view. I think it is different in Poland and the USA but in the UK there is no mass broadcaster on television that I can think of that would dare support the sort of views WM seems to support. Free speech is a wonderful thing but spouting an opinion on a soapbox in Hyde Park is not the same as the BBC giving their view on the matter to the watching millions.

This link provides reasons as to why a father figure is needed in a child’s life.
https://www.all4kids.org/news/blog/a-fa ... velopment/
Why can't an uncle be a father figure for a child who has two moms? Or an aunt being a mother figure for a child who has two dads?

BTW, some people in a same-sex couple could play an opposite-sex role. For instance, if YouTube male make-up artist John Maclean will ever be in a same-sex couple, he could play the role of the woman:

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

He's already a grrrl, after all! :)

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