75. Pułk Piechoty Regimental Banner and Training

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Volyn
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75. Pułk Piechoty Regimental Banner and Training

#1

Post by Volyn » 01 Aug 2020, 18:22

Digital image of the regimental banner front and back:
Untitled.jpg
Link for additional photos of the regimental museum:
https://chorzow.naszemiasto.pl/izba-pam ... 13-4104009

My Grandfather was conscripted as an infantryman into the Polish Army and served from 16 MAR 1936 until 18 SEP 1937 with 4. kompanii - II batalion - 75. Pułk Piechoty - 23 Górnośląska Dywizja Piechoty.
Links about the regiment:
https://dobroni.pl/post/75-pulk-piechoty-f642218
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/75_Pu%C5% ... ty_(II_RP)

The battalion was garrisoned in Chorzów which was near the pre-war Polish-German border, and according to his own accounts they would regularly march from Chorzów to Rybnik where the garrison for I Batalion was located. The distance is roughly 42km (26mi) one way or 84km (52mi) round trip, and I do not know if they would overnight in Rybnik. All of this marching and training helped him greatly during WW2, he was always one of the fastest and hardiest soldiers in the different units he served with.
https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Chorzow ... 021742!3e2

Obviously the Infantry is expected to walk a great distance, but this seems to be excessive if it was done as often as he suggests, I am assuming that the Polish military did not have the budget for extensive weapons training, and marching is cheaper?

What information is available about the basic physical standards for Polish infantrymen, and how far were they really expected to march?

What other types of training and military activities were required while serving with the 75th Infantry Regiment during this time?
Last edited by Volyn on 02 Aug 2020, 14:20, edited 4 times in total.

gebhk
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Re: 75. Pułk Piechoty Regimental Banner and Training

#2

Post by gebhk » 02 Aug 2020, 10:44

Hi Volyn

Just a few quick notes.

Because Polish doctrine envisaged a mobile war despite the significant limitations of the transport system, it was clear that the ability of the foot soldier to cover long distances on foot while retaining fitness to fight was key. Not surprisingly, as your grandfather's experience shows, march training with full load was a major component of infantry training, with most units undertaking a march from the barracks to the training areas every working day.

Marching speed under normal conditions was 120 paces per minute. This translated into 4 km/h for larger columns of mixed arms; 5 km/h for infantry units up to a regiment in size while units up to a battalion were expected to be able to cover 1 km in 10 minutes without losing the ability to fight at the end of it.

The rate of 120 paces per minute was a constant, except in the most unusual circumstances. The daily output was regulated by amount of time spent marching and length and/or frequency of rest stops. Under normal circumstances: the first rest stop was ordered half an hour into the march; it lasted fifteen minutes and its purpose was to correct any problems with loading, straps, footwear etc of both men and horses. Thereafter, a 10 minute break was made every 50 minutes. Once a day a longer stop of 3 hours was made to allow horses and men to drink and eat as well as rest. During forced marches the length and frequency of rests would be reduced - for example by having a 10-minute rest stop every two hours rather than every one.

Given the above a round trip of 84 km would have taken approx. 20 hours to complete, so would have been an exceptional event, though not unheard of. However a one-way march, which would have taken approximately 11.5 hours would have been a fairly standard exercise. The destination being a barracks and, therefore, providing overnight accommodation, is also suggestive of this.

Just one question - the numbering of rifle companies in Polish infantry regiments was sequential. Therefore the first company of II battalion would be the 4th company not the First (ie 4/75). The fact that your grandfather was garrisoned in Chorzow rather than Rybnik suggests the former. Can you confirm?

How is your Polish?


Volyn
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Re: 75. Pułk Piechoty Regimental Banner and Training

#3

Post by Volyn » 02 Aug 2020, 13:56

gebhk wrote:
02 Aug 2020, 10:44
Hi Volyn

Just a few quick notes.

Because Polish doctrine envisaged a mobile war despite the significant limitations of the transport system, it was clear that the ability of the foot soldier to cover long distances on foot while retaining fitness to fight was key. Not surprisingly, as your grandfather's experience shows, march training with full load was a major component of infantry training, with most units undertaking a march from the barracks to the training areas every working day.

Marching speed under normal conditions was 120 paces per minute. This translated into 4 km/h for larger columns of mixed arms; 5 km/h for infantry units up to a regiment in size while units up to a battalion were expected to be able to cover 1 km in 10 minutes without losing the ability to fight at the end of it.

The rate of 120 paces per minute was a constant, except in the most unusual circumstances. The daily output was regulated by amount of time spent marching and length and/or frequency of rest stops. Under normal circumstances: the first rest stop was ordered half an hour into the march; it lasted fifteen minutes and its purpose was to correct any problems with loading, straps, footwear etc of both men and horses. Thereafter, a 10 minute break was made every 50 minutes. Once a day a longer stop of 3 hours was made to allow horses and men to drink and eat as well as rest. During forced marches the length and frequency of rests would be reduced - for example by having a 10-minute rest stop every two hours rather than every one.

Given the above a round trip of 84 km would have taken approx. 20 hours to complete, so would have been an exceptional event, though not unheard of. However a one-way march, which would have taken approximately 11.5 hours would have been a fairly standard exercise. The destination being a barracks and, therefore, providing overnight accommodation, is also suggestive of this.
Hi gebhk - Great stuff thank you for the explanation, according to his written statements this type of marching occurred almost daily, I thought it was greatly exaggerated. Maybe the I batalion and II batalion would march past each other and overnight in each others barracks?

Was this type of marching expected out of any other Polish military formation?
gebhk wrote:
02 Aug 2020, 10:44
Just one question - the numbering of rifle companies in Polish infantry regiments was sequential. Therefore the first company of II battalion would be the 4th company not the First (ie 4/75). The fact that your grandfather was garrisoned in Chorzow rather than Rybnik suggests the former. Can you confirm?

How is your Polish?
According to the letter that I received from the Wojskowe Biuro Historyczne it reads:
pelnil sluzbe w Wojsku Polskim w 1 komp. strz. 75 Pułk Piechoty od 16.03.1936. r., zaprzysiezony zostal 23.05.1937 r. Zwolniony ze sluzby wojskowej 18.09.1937 r., notowany jako strzelec.
You must be correct about it actually being 4th company since this was technically the 1st company in the battalion, I edited my original post to reflect that, thank you. I rechecked and he states that he was sent to Chorzów and was garrisoned there, so it must be II batalion. As an aside, he specifically said Chorzów was a beautiful place and that he enjoyed living there.

Unfortunately my Polish is non-existent, but Google Translate works.

Volyn
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Re: 75. Pułk Piechoty Regimental Banner and Training

#4

Post by Volyn » 03 Aug 2020, 15:36

gebhk wrote:
02 Aug 2020, 10:44
Just one question - the numbering of rifle companies in Polish infantry regiments was sequential. Therefore the first company of II battalion would be the 4th company not the First (ie 4/75). The fact that your grandfather was garrisoned in Chorzow rather than Rybnik suggests the former. Can you confirm?
Hi gebhk
I scanned the letter and have provided a portion of the image here so you can better read it. Are you able to translate it?
PS 4.jpg

gebhk
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Re: 75. Pułk Piechoty Regimental Banner and Training

#5

Post by gebhk » 04 Aug 2020, 23:39

served in the Polish Army in the First Rifle Company, 75th Infantry Regiment from 16.03.1936, sworn in 23.05.1937. He was discharged from military service 19.09.1937, recorded as a rifleman.

If correct, this suggests he was in the first battalion not the 2nd. However I battalion was stationed in Rybnik. Perhaps he was moved at some point?

Bestest
K

Volyn
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Re: 75. Pułk Piechoty Regimental Banner and Training

#6

Post by Volyn » 05 Aug 2020, 00:03

Thank you gebhk
gebhk wrote:
04 Aug 2020, 23:39
If correct, this suggests he was in the first battalion not the 2nd. However I battalion was stationed in Rybnik. Perhaps he was moved at some point?
I can only speculate because he never lived in Rybnik only in Chorzów for the entire time, this is how I was able to identify his regiment before I received the official letter.

His only mention of Rybnik is about marching to the I battalion garrison and back, this happened regularly if not daily at some point.

I have two theories:

1. The letter actually meant the First Rifle company for his battalion, which would make it 4. kompanii - II batalion as you originally pointed out?
2. He may have been temporarily assigned to I batalion just prior to his discharge from the regiment, although he never mentioned it?

Do you know what was the discharge process was for a soldier leaving the infantry regiments during that time?
gebhk wrote:
04 Aug 2020, 23:39
served in the Polish Army in the First Rifle Company, 75th Infantry Regiment from 16.03.1936, sworn in 23.05.1937. He was discharged from military service 19.09.1937, recorded as a rifleman.
What is the significance of the sworn in date of 23 MAY 1937?

gebhk
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Re: 75. Pułk Piechoty Regimental Banner and Training

#7

Post by gebhk » 05 Aug 2020, 13:39

Ad 1) - or someone roostered something up in documentation along the way. Rare but obviously did happen when documents were transcribed manually.
Ad 2) can you specify what you mean by 'process''?
Ad 3) Not sure. I presume that recruits were sworn in when they had achieved a certain level of training but I don't know what the regulations and/or traditions pertaining to this were. Something scratches at the back of my mind that in some units the oath was taken on regimental day - but clearly this did not happen in your grandad's case (75th regiments' regimental day was 2nd June).
Last edited by gebhk on 05 Aug 2020, 16:47, edited 1 time in total.

Volyn
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Re: 75. Pułk Piechoty Regimental Banner and Training

#8

Post by Volyn » 05 Aug 2020, 15:36

gebhk wrote:
05 Aug 2020, 13:39
Ad 2) can you specify what you mean by 'process''?
In the modern military there are generally a series of meetings to attend and papers that need to be signed during the transition phase known as ''out-processing'' before a soldier is formally discharged from military service, this usually can last for a few days or weeks depending on the individual soldier's situation.

Do you know if there was a similar process in the Polish Army back then, or did a soldier simply sign a piece of paper and then leave the regiment on the appointed date?
gebhk wrote:
05 Aug 2020, 13:39
Ad 1) - or someone roostered something up in documentation along the way. Rare but obviously did happen when documents were transcribed manually.
This could be a real possibility because some of his other Soviet military documents also have their own minor clerical errors. I have found it to be a common occurrence in many different military documents, from all nationalities, even in the modern era. The only solution is for a soldier to review all of their own documentation carefully, otherwise there will probably be a mistake in it.

gebhk
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Re: 75. Pułk Piechoty Regimental Banner and Training

#9

Post by gebhk » 05 Aug 2020, 17:44

Hi Volyn

Thank you, it is always good to be asked practical questions and to find that one does not know the answers. Peacetime training was not an area that I had previously looked at and have to confess you have piqued my curiosity. Having gone to several of my go-to sources where I thought relevant info would be, I was disappointed. I will cast my net wider.

In the meantime, it is perhaps useful to consider some of the broader issues. Unlike the modern professional army of most countries whose soldiers are volunteers looking for a career in the armed forcers, the Polish army of the interbellum was based on National Service. Having been trained, the National Servicemen, on completion of their active service, did no leave but were transferred to the reserves. This, no doubt, affected such matters as the discharge process you ask about. However, the Polish armed forces in peacetime had missions other than the purely military. Firstly, a new national identity had to be welded out of three regions which had previously been parts of three different occupying powers - with different cultures, legal systems, languages etc. The army was seen as a standard bearer for propagating the new Polish 'norm'. Secondly, in a country with areas of appalling poverty and backwardness inherited from the previous 'managers', the armed forces had to serve as a remedial adult education system not just for literacy and numeracy but for basics such as how to brush your teeth with a toothbrush! All these factors clearly impacted on the whole process of recruit training.

TBC

Volyn
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Re: 75. Pułk Piechoty Regimental Banner and Training

#10

Post by Volyn » 05 Aug 2020, 19:17

gebhk wrote:
05 Aug 2020, 17:44
Hi Volyn

Thank you, it is always good to be asked practical questions and to find that one does not know the answers. Peacetime training was not an area that I had previously looked at and have to confess you have piqued my curiosity. Having gone to several of my go-to sources where I thought relevant info would be, I was disappointed. I will cast my net wider.
I was unable to find anything related to these topics either, I just supposed it was written in a Polish book that I cannot read.
gebhk wrote:
05 Aug 2020, 17:44
...the Polish armed forces in peacetime had missions other than the purely military. Firstly, a new national identity had to be welded out of three regions which had previously been parts of three different occupying powers - with different cultures, legal systems, languages etc. The army was seen as a standard bearer for propagating the new Polish 'norm'. Secondly, in a country with areas of appalling poverty and backwardness inherited from the previous 'managers', the armed forces had to serve as a remedial adult education system not just for literacy and numeracy but for basics such as how to brush your teeth with a toothbrush! All these factors clearly impacted on the whole process of recruit training.
This makes more sense to me now, because according to his account he explains what sounds like an unusually high emphasis on dress appearance, hygiene care, grooming, behavior, etc. which I had assumed was typical to an infantry unit. Now I can see how they were training people to a standardized new national Polish behavior model. Please let me know what else you may learn.

gebhk
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Re: 75. Pułk Piechoty Regimental Banner and Training

#11

Post by gebhk » 09 Aug 2020, 12:17

Sorry Volyn, I am still waiting to hear from some acquaintances about laying my hands on the relevant bumph. However, since it's taking longer than I expected, I will speculate a little on the marching aspect:

Firstly, clearly, troops did not spend every day marching 26 miles or anything like that frequently, albeit it may well have felt like it - alas human memory is notoriously unreliable, among other things giving a larger than life presence to difficult or traumatic events. For one thing, Poland inherited vast swathes of grinding poverty, particularly in the countryside which provided the vast majority of infantry recruits. This resulted, among others, in habitual semi-starvation with the 'statistical Pole' of the interbellum having a calorific consumption well below what could be described as healthy. The physical condition of many of the recruits was so poor that never mind marching, they were quite unable to stomach the army diet which was too rich for their weakened systems. They just had to be built up slowly before anything could be done with them.

Broadly, the 18 month service was divided into three 6-month periods. The first, which included an 8-week boot camp (szkola rekruta vel piechura: recruit or infantryman's school) was aimed at individual training and the careful selection of candidates for NCO training. Boot camp was divided into two 4-week sections, the first aimed at training the individual, the second involving training within the team and section. On completion of boot camp, graduates were allocated to the rifle and machine gun companies of the regiment (and other specialist units such as signals and pioneers but that does not concern us here). Training then continued as part of the platoon and then company. The first period was closed by the first camp and divisional manoeuvres.

The second 6-month training period was concerned with specialisation - within the rifle, MMg, pioneer companies etc and as batmen, buglers, observers etc. The final 6 months consisted of reinforcing previous learning and putting it into practice, usually including the second camp and manoeuvres.

TBC
Last edited by gebhk on 09 Aug 2020, 14:30, edited 1 time in total.

gebhk
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Re: 75. Pułk Piechoty Regimental Banner and Training

#12

Post by gebhk » 09 Aug 2020, 13:53

And now the nub of the matter.

12 subjects were taught/trained within each of the three 6-month periods. These were
1) Battle drills and marching
2) Marksmanship and weapons training
3) Weapons and equipment studies
4) Bayonet fight training
5) Grenade fight training
6) Pioneer training
7) Observation duty and signals training
8) Gas defence training
9) Formal drill
10) Physical education
11) Regulations
12) Cultural and educational activities.

Over 50% of the training time was allocated to the first two items on the list, so let's ignore the remainder for the purposes of our discussion. In a rifle company, the ratio of battle drills & marching to weapons' training was as follows (1938 regulations*)
Period 1, subperiod 1 - 30:25
Period 1, subperiod 2 - 50:18
Period 2 - 30:25
Period 3 - 40:20
These percentages did not apply to divisional manoeuvres.

As you can see, there is no way that this could accommodate spending over 10 hours every day marching - especially when you bear in mind that training did not take up 100% of the soldiers waking hours. Eating, cleaning and duties had to be accommodated (someone had to peel the spuds and empty the latrines and I can assure you it wasn't the company commander or the sergeant major!). When personnel levels were low, proportionally more time had to be devoted to service and guard duties within the regiment, reducing time available for training (and therefore marching) further.

TBC


*Instrukcja wyszkolenia piechoty, cz. II: Strzelec sluzby czynnej. MSWojsk.Dep. Piech. L. 2000-12/Wyszk.; 1938

gebhk
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Re: 75. Pułk Piechoty Regimental Banner and Training

#13

Post by gebhk » 09 Aug 2020, 15:06

What the above regulations recommend for marching.

In period I, subperiod 1:
Marching up to 10 km with weapons only from barracks to training ground.
One 15 km march with full kit
One 25 km march with full kit, in this one km in gasmask
0ne 25 km day/nighttime march. Within tha - 3km in gasmask, 1 hour marched without rest stop at the rate of 10 km/hr. Part of the march with full security precautions
One 30 km day/nightime march of which at least 5km in gasmask. This martch can be carried out as part of garrison exercises.

In period I, subperiod 2:
5-10 km cross-country march partly in loose files and areas designated as gas-contaminated and under enemy artillery fire
Longer marches up to 40 km to be included in battle training exercises.

Period II
At least 5 marches 30-40 km in varying atmospheric conditions. Can be combined with battle training. Gasmasks ton be worn for up to 4-6km at a time. get the soldiers used to marching with reduced rest stops.

Period III
As part of battle training exercises.

These are of course general guidelines and company and regimental commanders would have adjusted them as necessary or as they fancied. As you probably know, Poland's peacetime military was organised on two tracks - peacetime and wartime. The former was the responsibility of the Ministry and included responsibility for troop training. The second was the prerogative of the General Inspectorate of the Armed Forces and it's inspectors could issue training directives as hey saw fit to the units that came into their purview. Since the Inspectorate included the personnel office for the officers, I am sure you can work out what happened when Ministry and Inspectorate directives contradicted each other and the officer in question cared even a little about his future career!

It is not, therefore, beyond the realms of possibility that your grandfather had the misfortune of serving either under a company/battalion/regimental commander or an inspector who had a bee in his bonnet about march training and, thus, marching was more frequent and longer than the regulations stipulated. However, while virtually daily marches up to 10 km were not out of the question, daily 26 km marches, almost certainly were.
Last edited by gebhk on 09 Aug 2020, 15:18, edited 2 times in total.

gebhk
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Re: 75. Pułk Piechoty Regimental Banner and Training

#14

Post by gebhk » 09 Aug 2020, 15:15

You also asked whether similar march training was undertaken by other arms. The answer is no. Even within the rifle battalion, the machine gun company battle drill and marching part of the programme was different to that of the rifle company. To whit the battle drill and marching: weapons training ratios for the various periods in the MG company:

I/1 20:33
I/2 50:20
II 25:33
III 40:25

Volyn
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Re: 75. Pułk Piechoty Regimental Banner and Training

#15

Post by Volyn » 09 Aug 2020, 21:06

Bravo gebhk!

Thank you for the wealth of detailed explanations in your posts, this is what I wanted to learn more about.

gebhk wrote:
09 Aug 2020, 12:17
I will speculate a little on the marching aspect:
Firstly, clearly, troops did not spend every day marching 26 miles or anything like that frequently, albeit it may well have felt like it - alas human memory is notoriously unreliable, among other things giving a larger than life presence to difficult or traumatic events.
gebhk wrote:
09 Aug 2020, 15:06
It is not, therefore, beyond the realms of possibility that your grandfather had the misfortune of serving either under a company/battalion/regimental commander or an inspector who had a bee in his bonnet about march training and, thus, marching was more frequent and longer than the regulations stipulated. However, while virtually daily marches up to 10 km were not out of the question, daily 26 km marches, almost certainly were.
I agree with your assessment, his accounts make it seem like the unit command structure fits your description. I am not sure how stern the military was during the interbellum years, however, I also get the impression that his unit was overly strict, but it could have been normal for that era.
gebhk wrote:
09 Aug 2020, 12:17
For one thing, Poland inherited vast swathes of grinding poverty, particularly in the countryside which provided the vast majority of infantry recruits. This resulted, among others, in habitual semi-starvation with the 'statistical Pole' of the interbellum having a calorific consumption well below what could be described as healthy. The physical condition of many of the recruits was so poor that never mind marching, they were quite unable to stomach the army diet which was too rich for their weakened systems. They just had to be built up slowly before anything could be done with them.
Very interesting, my grandfather came from the Wołyń Voivodeship and I understand it was an impoverished region. Also, he was 21.5 years old when he was conscripted, before that he had been apprenticing as a carpenter since he was 15; he said this was the source of his "strength". His family owned a bakery and I think they were able to eat well because of that, at least he never complained about a lack of food from what I read.

What did the army diet consist of that made it too rich?
gebhk wrote:
09 Aug 2020, 12:17
Broadly, the 18 month service was divided into three 6-month periods. The first, which included an 8-week boot camp (szkola rekruta vel piechura: recruit or infantryman's school) was aimed at individual training and the careful selection of candidates for NCO training.
Were all 18 months of the soldier's training conducted by the same infantry regiment? Do you know how a soldier was assigned to their military occupation and regiment?

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