75. Pułk Piechoty Regimental Banner and Training

Discussions on all aspects of Poland during the Second Polish Republic and the Second World War. Hosted by Piotr Kapuscinski.
gebhk
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Re: 75. Pułk Piechoty Regimental Banner and Training

#16

Post by gebhk » 09 Aug 2020, 23:42

I am not sure how stern the military was during the interbellum years, however, I also get the impression that his unit was overly strict, but it could have been normal for that era.
I can't speak to international comparisons. Clearly, as in all such enterprises, much depended on the individuals and groups that they formed. Slapping soldiers around (as practiced by, say, the Japanese) and such like was sternly prohibited and the regulations and instructions went out of their way to emphasize that martinetry and bull were not the way to run an effective military unit. Any actions or words undermining an individual's personal dignity were severely frowned upon and this expressed itself in such matters as an insistence on appropriate forms of address. This led tonew and dizzying heights of noncom inventiveness, such as the following favourite of my grandfather: loosely translated; "If thou were as tall as thou art stupid, on your knees you could kiss the moon's a...".

gebhk
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Re: 75. Pułk Piechoty Regimental Banner and Training

#17

Post by gebhk » 09 Aug 2020, 23:44

What did the army diet consist of that made it too rich?
I will look up some basics of Polish military cuisine shortly (in an oblique reference to the popularity of pea soup, my grandfather maintained that the Polish infantryman was the first jet-powered weapon on earth.....). However it was not that the military diet could be considered outlandishly rich by today's standards (albeit it was relatively calorie-rich to fuel the daily exertions of military training), rather it was the fact that it consisted of three square and meat and two veg at least once a day that caused problems to an organism that was calorifically half-starved for much of the year and saw meat at Easter as a once-a-year special treat. I seem to recall from another thread someone commenting how short many Polish rank and file ex-servicemen were - a consequence of a childhood without adequate protein intake. Much as the tragic survivors of concentration camps and Japanese POW camps who survived the internment only to succumb to bowel problems after liberation due to over-rich eating, many Polish recruits needed to be introduced gradually to even a reasonably adequate and healthy diet.


gebhk
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Re: 75. Pułk Piechoty Regimental Banner and Training

#18

Post by gebhk » 10 Aug 2020, 00:28

Were all 18 months of the soldier's training conducted by the same infantry regiment?
Yes as a general principle. This was seen as an important element of building morale and esprit de corps. Even movement from one company to another was only permissible under extreme circumstances which were tightly regulated.

gebhk
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Re: 75. Pułk Piechoty Regimental Banner and Training

#19

Post by gebhk » 10 Aug 2020, 01:22

What is the significance of the sworn in date of 23 MAY 1937?
Recruits were normally sworn in on completion of their individual training (approx. 8 weeks after joining). This suggests that the year for your grandfather's swearing in is a typo and it should be 1936. The swearing in was a major ceremony with top students swearing on the regimental flag. The ceremony marked the formal admission of the recruit to the regiment and was usually accompanied by appropriate speeches relating to regimental history, the soldiers duty, brotherhood in arms and so forth and often by the distribution of regimental insignia etc. From the recruits POV, the main significance of the event was that he was eligible thenceforth for passes into town.

Volyn
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Re: 75. Pułk Piechoty Regimental Banner and Training

#20

Post by Volyn » 10 Aug 2020, 03:05

gebhk wrote:
09 Aug 2020, 23:42
I am not sure how stern the military was during the interbellum years, however, I also get the impression that his unit was overly strict, but it could have been normal for that era.
Any actions or words undermining an individual's personal dignity were severely frowned upon and this expressed itself in such matters as an insistence on appropriate forms of address. This led to new and dizzying heights of noncom inventiveness, such as the following favourite of my grandfather: loosely translated; "If thou were as tall as thou art stupid, on your knees you could kiss the moon's a...".
This brings to mind a story he had about a particular Sergeant who was a Polish nationalist, he did not treat non-Poles well... wo unto those who caught his wrath.
gebhk wrote:
10 Aug 2020, 01:22
What is the significance of the sworn in date of 23 MAY 1937?
Recruits were normally sworn in on completion of their individual training (approx. 8 weeks after joining). This suggests that the year for your grandfather's swearing in is a typo and it should be 1936.
Makes sense that it was a typo, yet another we seem to have uncovered.

gebhk
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Re: 75. Pułk Piechoty Regimental Banner and Training

#21

Post by gebhk » 18 Aug 2020, 14:46

Hi Volyn

I am acutely aware that I promised you a snapshot of the Polish military diet in the interbellum, so here goes.

The basis for the serviceman's diet was the peacetime Ration N. This consisted (in 1939) of a daily allowance of:

800g ‘Soldier’s’ bread*
50g instant coffee
250g beef**
200g fresh vegetables
150g hard vegetables***
700g potatoes
40g pork lard
20g sugar
10g flour
22g salt
15g fresh onion
1g dried vegetable and spice mix
0.5g spices
5ml vinegar

* Poland had no industrial-scale bakeries that could satisfy the army’s needs and so the army had to bake its own bread – the eponymous ‘Soldiers bread’, specially designed to last a long time…..
** Beef was a guideline and other types of meat could be substituted when available. Lamb was officially introduced on certain days of the week to promote sheep farming for wool. Poland was desperately short of wool for uniform production etc during the interbellum and lamb was not, traditionally, a popular meat choice. Wool farming was not commercially viable unless coupled with selling excess stock for meat. Another example of the army propping up strategically vital production and at the same time playing its part in educating the population.
*** I have to confess with embarrassment that I don’t know what ‘hard vegetable’ is but presume it is dried vegetables (peas, beans) and cereals.

Ration N was intended for all soldiers in peacetime with the exception of military and civilian persons in military prison with specific sentences which prescribed the reduced penal ration (Ration K).

There were also supplements for special circumstances. As a general principle, only one supplement could be taken on top of the basic ration.

Anti-epidemic supplement (25g instant coffee or 1g tea plus 10g sugar). It was ordered by the Army commander or regional corps commander on the motion (no, stop it!) of the ranking medical officer. In practice it was introduced automatically every year between 1st June and the end of August. The intention was to hydrate additionally in order to discourage soldiers from drinking potentially contaminated fresh water out of country wells. Given that tea and coffee are diuretics, one has to question the efficacy of this effort.

School supplement (0.4l milk, 50g beef, 20g butter. 20g pork lard). Intended for students and personnel of military schools, that is: cadet corps, officer training schools, military junior schools and aeronautical schools and courses.

Heavy labour supplement (50g beef, 25g instant coffee). Intended for individuals carrying out physically or mentally demanding work who were not entitled to the school supplement.

Milk supplement (1l milk) intended for individuals working in environments where they were exposed to toxins – mainly the loading and maintenance of electrical batteries, photograph development and the production of hydrogen for balloons.

These are, of course, minimum guidelines. I can’t believe that items like fish, eggs, cheese, set milk and butter where wholly absent from the soldiers usual diet.
Last edited by gebhk on 18 Aug 2020, 22:17, edited 5 times in total.

gebhk
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Re: 75. Pułk Piechoty Regimental Banner and Training

#22

Post by gebhk » 18 Aug 2020, 15:10

From this cornucopia, three meals per day were prepared.

Breakfast most commonly consisted of coffee and bread with some sort of topping or soup (typically: potato, vegetable or cereal-based.) The main meal of the day was dinner with at least two courses which included soup and meat with potatoes and plentiful vegetables – such as sauerkraut, tomatoes, gherkins or salad. Supper was also meant to be substantive - sending the soldiers to bed on tea or coffee alone was expressly forbidden.

This was of course the baseline. The soldier could usually supplement his diet at his own expense from the soldier’s co-operative shop (these usually had mobile shops to accompany the troops into the field). Special occasions (national holidays, regimental day, Christmas, Easter etc) had a special meal as a main event. Traditionally, soldiers returning to their garrisons from summer manoeuvres were treated to food parcels by local organisations.
Last edited by gebhk on 18 Aug 2020, 20:59, edited 1 time in total.

gebhk
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Re: 75. Pułk Piechoty Regimental Banner and Training

#23

Post by gebhk » 18 Aug 2020, 15:43

So was this diet particularly rich? The average daily calorific consumption of 3560 kcal seems high by today’s standards. However, it was considered the minimum acceptable by the military and you have to bear in mind firstly that the typical recruit exerted himself daily a great deal more than the average computer-pusher of today and secondly the undernourished baseline from which he typically started. The calorific value of the diet certainly fell into the ballpark of other European armies (France: 3588; UK: 3000; Italy: 3121; USSR: 3696; Romania 3900-4000) and, tellingly perhaps, one can discern a trend of higher calorie allocation in countries with calorie-poor populations. In short, one rarely if ever sees fat Polish servicemen on photographs while near-cachectic ones are not unusual – this despite the army rejecting 22% of recruits because of poor physical build to begin with.

It is in comparison with the pitifully inadequate, flour and potato-based diet of the statistical Pole of the period that the army diet appears fantastically rich in quantity and variety. The statistical peasant farmer had to make do with at most 1800-2000 kcal/day which could fall as low as 1350 kcal/day in the new year. Needless to say, given that some areas where relatively well-off, others areas had to make do with values a lot lower than that. With a meat consumption of 90-110kg of meat per annum, the military man ate at least twice as much as his town-dwelling civilian counterpart (45kg pa) and a phenomenal over ELEVEN times as much as the peasant farmer (8.5-9kg pa). Similar disproportions can be seen in other areas of food consumption. For example the military consumption of 8.7kg of fats was over three times that of the peasantry (2.8kg).

It is not surprising, therefore, that converting from the diet of the poorest parts of the country to that of the military could be a shock to the system and had to be handled gradually and carefully to avoid potentially life-threatening consequences.
Last edited by gebhk on 18 Aug 2020, 22:13, edited 1 time in total.

gebhk
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Re: 75. Pułk Piechoty Regimental Banner and Training

#24

Post by gebhk » 18 Aug 2020, 16:19

I also note that i didn't answer your question: Do you know how a soldier was assigned to their military occupation and regiment?

Alas I don't know the practical details of the process of allocation to regiments. However, as a general principle, recruits from the poorest parts of the country were sent to the more affluent parts and vice versa to foster education and national unity. Your granddad's experience seems to tie in with this trend. Other factors were pre-service education and trade (for example folk with experience of horses might be sent to the regional trains battalions, a driving license might get you into an armoured battalion etc) and ethnic background - there were prescribed maximums for folk of non-polish descent in each unit.

Allocation to specialisms was based on three criteria - pre-recruitment education and trade, the two psycho-technical assessments and the ongoing assessment by the soldier's superiors. I would have thought that your granddad's carpentry background would have made him a suitable candidate for the pioneer platoon of the regiment, if not a sapper battalion altogether, but clearly it was not to be.

Volyn
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Re: 75. Pułk Piechoty Regimental Banner and Training

#25

Post by Volyn » 18 Aug 2020, 22:15

gebhk wrote:
18 Aug 2020, 14:46
...I promised you a snapshot of the Polish military diet in the interbellum...
An exceptional amount of detail, outstanding work!

This helps put into perspective what a soldier's daily life was really like. Was this dietary model the same for the Navy and Air Force as well?

Would the local town's market or region have been the main source of food for any given regiment, or was there some type of national food logistics network supplying the military?

I ask because if the military was engaged in economic engineering per your example with the lamb and wool, they may have also wanted to integrate the national agricultural markets in order to provide food to certain areas where it might not have been as easy to source locally.
gebhk wrote:
18 Aug 2020, 15:10
From this cornucopia, three meals per day were prepared.

Breakfast most commonly consisted of coffee and bread with some sort of topping or soup (typically: potato, vegetable or cereal-based.) The main meal of the day was dinner with at least two courses which included soup and meat with potatoes and plentiful vegetables – such as sauerkraut, tomatoes, gherkins or salad. Supper was also meant to be substantive - sending the soldiers to bed on tea or coffee alone was expressly forbidden.
Was the guarantee of consistent better quality meals a motivating factor for civilians to volunteer for military service, especially from the poorer regions?
gebhk wrote:
18 Aug 2020, 15:10
Traditionally, soldiers returning to their garrisons from summer manoeuvres were treated to food parcels by local organisations.
Do you know where those maneuvers would be held, were there regional training grounds or ranges set aside for these purposes?
gebhk wrote:
18 Aug 2020, 16:19
I also note that I didn't answer your question: Do you know how a soldier was assigned to their military occupation and regiment?

Alas I don't know the details of the process of allocation to regiments. However, as a general principle, recruits from the poorest parts of the country were sent to the more affluent parts and vice versa to foster education and national unity. Your granddad's experience seems to tie in with this trend.
I have heard this as well, it was probably a major culture shock for the people headed in opposite directions. In my grandfather's case, he noted how much he enjoyed living in Silesia during that time. Were soldiers who remained in the military eventually sent to any unit regardless of location?
gebhk wrote:
18 Aug 2020, 16:19
Other factors were pre-service education and trade... and ethnic background - there were prescribed maximums for folk of non-polish descent in each unit.
I read something about this before, but I did not get any information on what the ethnic allotments were, was it variable or were there preset quotas?
gebhk wrote:
18 Aug 2020, 16:19
I would have thought that your granddad's carpentry background would have made him a suitable candidate for the pioneer platoon of the regiment, if not a sapper battalion altogether, but clearly it was not to be.
Funny that you should point this out, later when he was conscripted into the Soviet Army he was assigned to a sapper battalion.

gebhk
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Re: 75. Pułk Piechoty Regimental Banner and Training

#26

Post by gebhk » 18 Aug 2020, 23:17

Was this dietary model the same for the Navy and Air Force as well?
Can't say for sure about the navy, but I expect it was. There was no independent air force.
Would the local town's market or region have been the main source of food for any given regiment, or was there some type of national food logistics network supplying the military?
This varied with the area and the food article. As general principle, food was sourced as locally as possible to minimise transportation costs. This is reflected in catering costs which varied by up to 20% between the richest and poorest parts of the country. However, obviously, some areas were less able to supply all the army's needs and so sources had to be found further afield with delivery by train and then truck or horse wagon being the norm. In the pre-refrigerated transport era, meat was usually delivered by train on the hoof and slaughtered and butchered at garrison level before distribution in special metal boxes. As I mentioned earlier, bread was only baked in Poland at the artisan level and there was no large-scale factory production. 'Soldiers bread' was therefore baked for the army at 33 national centres and distributed by rail. Periodically some of the same type of bread was supplied by the army's mobile bread baking units. While not strictly necessary in peacetime, the mobile bakeries designed to fill in gaps up front during wartime had to practice too. Similarly, instant coffee was manufactured by a central army plant and distributed by rail although several civilian manufacturies were slated for mobilisation and support production in time of war.

Volyn
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Re: 75. Pułk Piechoty Regimental Banner and Training

#27

Post by Volyn » 19 Aug 2020, 01:17

gebhk wrote:
18 Aug 2020, 23:17
As I mentioned earlier, bread was only baked in Poland at the artisan level and there was no large-scale factory production. 'Soldiers bread' was therefore baked for the army at 33 national centres and distributed by rail. Periodically some of the same type of bread was supplied by the army's mobile bread baking units. While not strictly necessary in peacetime, the mobile bakeries designed to fill in gaps up front during wartime had to practice too. Similarly, instant coffee was manufactured by a central army plant and distributed by rail although several civilian manufacturies were slated for mobilisation and support production in time of war.
Thank you gebhk!

Did the Polish military take into consideration any religious or ethnic dietary restrictions and preparation methods, how were they accommodated if at all?

Was the artisan bread strictly made by the battalion bakers or did they source it from the local town bakeries as well? His family's bakery could have supplied the local troops garrisoned in their hometown.

Was there anything else produced at these central army plants? Were they operated by civilians and overseen by the army? Did they produce food supplies for specific military districts?

gebhk
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Re: 75. Pułk Piechoty Regimental Banner and Training

#28

Post by gebhk » 20 Aug 2020, 21:25

Was the artisan bread strictly made by the battalion bakers or did they source it from the local town bakeries as well? His family's bakery could have supplied the local troops garrisoned in their hometown.
Some crossing of wires I think. Artisan bread was not eaten by the army. That was what the 'soldiers bread' was for, made in 33 central army bakeries and distributed by rail etc.
Was there anything else produced at these central army plants? Were they operated by civilians and overseen by the army? Did they produce food supplies for specific military districts?
Not sure. One possible candidate was hard tack (known in Poland post WW2 as 'panzerwafers'). This was made to a standard size and packaging for the army and made up part of the 'iron ration' (3 pieces per man). While primarily meant for wartime, even hardtack has a its use by date, so stocks would be cycled out and used during manoeuvres for example. Contrary to what one might suppose the hardtack was generally given the thumbs up regarding taste once it was made chewable but was a bit of challenge to get to that state. Steaming over a mug of coffee was one patented method.

The other constituent of iron rations was tinned food. The Polish Army versions were universally considered excellent, none of your 3 miniscule bits of meat-like product floating in a pool of brown goo, with these babies. There were 6 categories: meat, meat/vegetable, vegetable, fruit, fish and milk-based. These were purchased from commercial manufacturers - both in special army tins and as straight-up commercial tins. At least one supplier - Pudliszki - is going strong still and while I don't know about the US, here is the UK I can buy their stuff at my local supermarket!

Incidentally, I've discovered that the 'instant coffee' wasn't coffee at all but a cereal and chicory concoction with zero caffeine, so my quibbles regarding dehydration were unfounded - though the ones regarding tea are not, probably.

gebhk
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Re: 75. Pułk Piechoty Regimental Banner and Training

#29

Post by gebhk » 27 Aug 2020, 13:33

Was the guarantee of consistent better quality meals a motivating factor for civilians to volunteer for military service, especially from the poorer regions?
Basic national service was compulsory, so volunteering didn't come into it. However, there were options for trainees to apply for further army service after that, however I have no idea how selection worked or what positions were open. It would be very difficult to pinpoint a single aspect like diet as a deciding factor for volunteering for further service - I would suggest that the army offered job security and a high standard of living compared with the peasant life amid the depressed Polish rural economy of the late twenties and most of the thirties. The army certainly had no problems recruiting career soldiers and a wide pool to select the best from. The excellence of Polish pilots and air force personnel generally is at least partly due to this.

On a wider issue, the young man coming home to his village in Grubbing-in-the-Mud after completing army service, fit and well fed, in a decent set of clothes, having learnt to read and write as well as perhaps some other useful trade, with more money in his wallet than anyone in the village had ever seen in one place and having 'seen the world' would have been an instant sensation. He would certainly have had a serious leg-up in the job and marriage markets. For this reason, many ex-national servicemen held the army in high esteem, regardless of their views on the Polish state in general and served as good ambassadors for it in the general population.

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Re: 75. Pułk Piechoty Regimental Banner and Training

#30

Post by gebhk » 27 Aug 2020, 13:39

Do you know where those maneuvers would be held, were there regional training grounds or ranges set aside for these purposes?
AFAIK all regiments had their own training grounds, firing ranges and whatnot, usually out of town - ie there was a daily march there and back to keep the soldiers 'feet fit'. There were larger establishments (like the Barycz training camp) which were used by a number of units. Big manoeuvres however would take place in various parts of the countryside. Must confess my ignorance how the latter stood in law and how it was arranged - I suspect the German law that all property, private or commercial, was available to the military for training as they saw fit -however that is just my supposition. perhaps WM can confirm or deny?

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