How would Hitler's policy towards Poland have been different had Danzig been outright given to Poland back in 1919?

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Re: How would Hitler's policy towards Poland have been different had Danzig been outright given to Poland back in 1919?

#47

Post by Futurist » 15 Sep 2020, 23:23

BTW, in regards to Danzig, there were, what? Around 500,000 Germans in total there? In comparison to around 25 million Poles in all of Poland, right? So, yeah, 25,000,000:500,000 = 50:1 in favor of the Poles.


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Re: How would Hitler's policy towards Poland have been different had Danzig been outright given to Poland back in 1919?

#48

Post by wm » 15 Sep 2020, 23:45

The Germans were protected by the (forced upon Poland) Minority Treaty, guaranteed by the League of Nations and especially Britain/France.

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Re: How would Hitler's policy towards Poland have been different had Danzig been outright given to Poland back in 1919?

#49

Post by Futurist » 15 Sep 2020, 23:55

But this didn't actually prevent Poland from altering the demographics of the areas where Germans lived just so long as these Germans weren't actually expelled from their homes, correct?

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Re: How would Hitler's policy towards Poland have been different had Danzig been outright given to Poland back in 1919?

#50

Post by wm » 16 Sep 2020, 00:39

The Germans had the right to complain directly to the League, and then the League raked the Poles over the coals for months.
It wasn't like they were defenseless.

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Re: How would Hitler's policy towards Poland have been different had Danzig been outright given to Poland back in 1919?

#51

Post by Futurist » 16 Sep 2020, 00:41

"Coals" meaning what, exactly?

Also, what would the League have done in response to Poles moving to a Polish-controlled Danzig?

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Re: How would Hitler's policy towards Poland have been different had Danzig been outright given to Poland back in 1919?

#52

Post by gebhk » 16 Sep 2020, 13:03

BTW, in regards to Danzig, there were, what? Around 500,000 Germans in total there? In comparison to around 25 million Poles in all of Poland, right? So, yeah, 25,000,000:500,000 = 50:1 in favor of the Poles.
And I imagine quite a higher ratio of Germans to Poles, if you consider Danzig as part of Germany. Or for that matter the corridor and Silesia as a whole. Or for that matter no doubt there were more Russians than Poles if you consider Poland and Russia as a whole. With respect guys, so what? I don't understand the logic here.

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Re: How would Hitler's policy towards Poland have been different had Danzig been outright given to Poland back in 1919?

#53

Post by gebhk » 16 Sep 2020, 13:06

Also, what would the League have done in response to Poles moving to a Polish-controlled Danzig?
Short of making it happen over the barrel of a gun, how was Poland to achieve this if the Danzig Senate said no? In short, the only way was to do what the Indian Union did with regard to Goa (Operation Vijay) in 1962 and, perhaps more comparably in Hyderabad in 1948 (Operation Polo). Since Portugal and Pakistan respectively were in no position to do much or anything about it and Britain didn't want to, I expect, these went off without too much of a hitch for the Indians.

A Polish invasion of Danzig would no doubt have raised the same sort of controversy that the Indian invasions did and do, though I suspect there would have been far less sympathy for the Poles than there was for the Indian side of the argument, lacking the ethnic (in the widest sense) argument that the Indians had in both Goa and Hyderabad. Off course then AH would have had a casus belli gifted to him with, as a bonus, little credible reason for Britain and France to object and, I would guess, a far greater level of whole-hearted support from his compatriots than was the case in 1939.

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Re: How would Hitler's policy towards Poland have been different had Danzig been outright given to Poland back in 1919?

#54

Post by wm » 16 Sep 2020, 17:15

Futurist wrote:
16 Sep 2020, 00:41
"Coals" meaning what, exactly?

Also, what would the League have done in response to Poles moving to a Polish-controlled Danzig?
A country couldn't exist in a vacuum, negativity generated during the hearings would hurt Poland badly, and alienate her in Europe.

France and Britain sponsored the treaty, they (i.e., great powers) couldn't afford to be humiliated like that.

Poland was too small to defy the Allies in the manner Italy did. A simply maritime blockade or import ban on Polish products by Germany/Austria would send the Polish economy nose-diving.

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Re: How would Hitler's policy towards Poland have been different had Danzig been outright given to Poland back in 1919?

#55

Post by Futurist » 16 Sep 2020, 20:05

gebhk wrote:
16 Sep 2020, 13:06
Also, what would the League have done in response to Poles moving to a Polish-controlled Danzig?
Short of making it happen over the barrel of a gun, how was Poland to achieve this if the Danzig Senate said no? In short, the only way was to do what the Indian Union did with regard to Goa (Operation Vijay) in 1962 and, perhaps more comparably in Hyderabad in 1948 (Operation Polo). Since Portugal and Pakistan respectively were in no position to do much or anything about it and Britain didn't want to, I expect, these went off without too much of a hitch for the Indians.

A Polish invasion of Danzig would no doubt have raised the same sort of controversy that the Indian invasions did and do, though I suspect there would have been far less sympathy for the Poles than there was for the Indian side of the argument, lacking the ethnic (in the widest sense) argument that the Indians had in both Goa and Hyderabad. Off course then AH would have had a casus belli gifted to him with, as a bonus, little credible reason for Britain and France to object and, I would guess, a far greater level of whole-hearted support from his compatriots than was the case in 1939.
I was talking about a scenario where Poland would have acquired Danzig back in 1919--as in, where Danzig would have become an actual part of Poland after the end of World War I. There would have been no Danzig Senate at all in such a scenario.

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Re: How would Hitler's policy towards Poland have been different had Danzig been outright given to Poland back in 1919?

#56

Post by Futurist » 16 Sep 2020, 20:06

gebhk wrote:
16 Sep 2020, 13:03
BTW, in regards to Danzig, there were, what? Around 500,000 Germans in total there? In comparison to around 25 million Poles in all of Poland, right? So, yeah, 25,000,000:500,000 = 50:1 in favor of the Poles.
And I imagine quite a higher ratio of Germans to Poles, if you consider Danzig as part of Germany. Or for that matter the corridor and Silesia as a whole. Or for that matter no doubt there were more Russians than Poles if you consider Poland and Russia as a whole. With respect guys, so what? I don't understand the logic here.
This question was asked in the context of Poland acquiring Danzig back in 1919.

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Re: How would Hitler's policy towards Poland have been different had Danzig been outright given to Poland back in 1919?

#57

Post by Futurist » 16 Sep 2020, 20:07

wm wrote:
16 Sep 2020, 17:15
Futurist wrote:
16 Sep 2020, 00:41
"Coals" meaning what, exactly?

Also, what would the League have done in response to Poles moving to a Polish-controlled Danzig?
A country couldn't exist in a vacuum, negativity generated during the hearings would hurt Poland badly, and alienate her in Europe.

France and Britain sponsored the treaty, they (i.e., great powers) couldn't afford to be humiliated like that.

Poland was too small to defy the Allies in the manner Italy did. A simply maritime blockade or import ban on Polish products by Germany/Austria would send the Polish economy nose-diving.
Why didn't Weimar Germany try imposing a maritime blockade and/or import ban on Polish products in real life in an attempt to bully Poland to agree to territorial revision? Or did Weimar Germany's trade war against Poland include these measures?

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Re: How would Hitler's policy towards Poland have been different had Danzig been outright given to Poland back in 1919?

#58

Post by wm » 16 Sep 2020, 20:57

Polish bombers needed less than an hour to reach Berlin, and they didn't have a single fighter.

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Re: How would Hitler's policy towards Poland have been different had Danzig been outright given to Poland back in 1919?

#59

Post by gebhk » 16 Sep 2020, 21:38

Also, what would the League have done in response to Poles moving to a Polish-controlled Danzig?
I was talking about a scenario where Poland would have acquired Danzig back in 1919--as in, where Danzig would have become an actual part of Poland after the end of World War I. There would have been no Danzig Senate at all in such a scenario.
I'm sorry but the question is pointless in this context surely? If Poland had acquired Danzig in 1919, there would have been no point to 'moving to a Polish-controlled Danzig" if it was already under Polish control? Clearly I'm missing something!

I am with WM that blockading Polish shipping in open sea would have been an act of war and Weimar Germany was in no position to get into one with Poland at the time (even if their military thought they were - but that's another subject). The trade war arguably did Poland a favour by forcing her to seek alternative markets for her exports and, if I remember correctly, substantially added to the impetus to the development of Gdynia. Without resorting to a war which they were unlikely to win, there was little Weimar Germany could do about either of those things.

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Re: How would Hitler's policy towards Poland have been different had Danzig been outright given to Poland back in 1919?

#60

Post by Futurist » 16 Sep 2020, 21:58

gebhk wrote:
16 Sep 2020, 21:38
Also, what would the League have done in response to Poles moving to a Polish-controlled Danzig?
I was talking about a scenario where Poland would have acquired Danzig back in 1919--as in, where Danzig would have become an actual part of Poland after the end of World War I. There would have been no Danzig Senate at all in such a scenario.
I'm sorry but the question is pointless in this context surely? If Poland had acquired Danzig in 1919, there would have been no point to 'moving to a Polish-controlled Danzig" if it was already under Polish control? Clearly I'm missing something!
The logic would be to reduce the risk of Germany pursuing a revanchist war for Danzig at some future point in time. If Danzig will become much more Polish, Germany's claim on it will become weaker--at least in comparison to before.
I am with WM that blockading Polish shipping in open sea would have been an act of war and Weimar Germany was in no position to get into one with Poland at the time (even if their military thought they were - but that's another subject). The trade war arguably did Poland a favour by forcing her to seek alternative markets for her exports and, if I remember correctly, substantially added to the impetus to the development of Gdynia. Without resorting to a war which they were unlikely to win, there was little Weimar Germany could do about either of those things.
Makes sense. Also, had Weimar Germany survived, just how long do you think that it would have maintained its trade war against Poland?

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