Is it true that a large part of Lodz's German population was expelled in or around 1918?

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wm
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Re: Is it true that a large part of Lodz's German population was expelled in or around 1918?

#31

Post by wm » 17 Sep 2020, 22:42

Futurist wrote:
17 Sep 2020, 22:11
wm wrote:
17 Sep 2020, 22:08
Futurist wrote:
17 Sep 2020, 21:47
Where did you get the 1913 data from, Sid?
Lots of Germans and Jews (especially officials) preferred to move to Germany than to stay in Łódź (or in Poland.)
Interesting, but this doesn't actually answer my question here.
We don't know how many of them moved voluntarily and how many under pressure. It's obvious that there was some pressure applied by local governments (frequently against the wishes of the Polish government.)

It should be remembered that for example, the Silesian Voivodeship was almost a country within a country. They had their own government, their own parliament. Warsaw had almost no influence there. As a result, things happened that shouldn't have happened.
But I've read memories of a man who was a hardcore "Polonizer" there and it seems all the Polonizing efforts weren't especially successful.

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Re: Is it true that a large part of Lodz's German population was expelled in or around 1918?

#32

Post by Sid Guttridge » 17 Sep 2020, 22:45

What is less clear is exactly why the German population fell.

My guess is that the Germans often filled administrative and commercial positions under Imperial Russia and many of their livelihoods were Polonized after the country regained independence. In these circumstances, it wouldn't require expulsion to induce an exodus. A similar phenomenon was observable in Eire after 1923, following the end of British administration.

Cheers,

Sid.


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Re: Is it true that a large part of Lodz's German population was expelled in or around 1918?

#33

Post by gebhk » 18 Sep 2020, 00:02

This implies a major loss of German population immediately after WWI,
Errm no, that implies a major loss of German population between 1913 and 1921 (but whether it was before the war, during the war or after the war or any combination of the above we do not know).

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Re: Is it true that a large part of Lodz's German population was expelled in or around 1918?

#34

Post by wm » 18 Sep 2020, 00:11

The fact is, if you wanted to choose between Poland and Germany - disregarding any other reasons - you should have chose Germany, it was much more promising place.
Germans, Jews, and actually many Poles thought like that.
Last edited by wm on 18 Sep 2020, 00:44, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Is it true that a large part of Lodz's German population was expelled in or around 1918?

#35

Post by Futurist » 18 Sep 2020, 00:27

Sid Guttridge wrote:
17 Sep 2020, 22:34
Hi Futurist,

From crunching the numbers in gebhk's last post.

Cheers,

Sid.
Thank you. This could, of course, mean that the number of Germans in Lodz uyezd actually slightly fell between 1897 and 1913--if the figures are indeed comparing the same territory, that is. Is that actually realistic?

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Re: Is it true that a large part of Lodz's German population was expelled in or around 1918?

#36

Post by gebhk » 18 Sep 2020, 02:53

I would avoid any conclusions - it seems likely that after over 100 years some or many of the Germans are likely to have become Polonised.

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Re: Is it true that a large part of Lodz's German population was expelled in or around 1918?

#37

Post by Futurist » 18 Sep 2020, 04:31

There's a 16-year time gap between 1897 and 1913--so, much less than a century!

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Re: Is it true that a large part of Lodz's German population was expelled in or around 1918?

#38

Post by gebhk » 18 Sep 2020, 13:10

There's a 16-year time gap between 1897 and 1913--so, much less than a century!
Off course, but assimilation is an ongoing and accelerating process. So, if you have a stable émigré population, in each succeeding generation there will be fewer people recognising themselves as ethnically different (for a variety of reasons - intermarriage, loss of cultural identity etc). Each generation further removed will lose more individuals than the previous one unless there are strong factors that counteract this process. The reason I brought up the 100yrs+ history is that after that length of time, the drop-off from one generation to the next would be high, all things being equal.

Quickly - Lodz (then little more than a village with less than 1000 inhabitants) fell to the Prussians in 1793 and this kickstarted the process of colonisation by Germans. When it was awarded to the Russians (to the ‘Polish Kingdom’ to be precise) in the Vienna Congress post-Napoleonic Wars, the process did not abate but in fact accelerated, particularly from 1823, so that in the latter part of the first half of the 19th century the German majority made up as much as 78% of the population. Thanks to the process of industrialisation, undoubtedly initiated and managed by the German immigrants, Lodz grew like Topsy (a >500-fold growth in population in less than 80 years, accelerating rapidly in the second half of the 19th century) by sucking in people from far and wide. These were mainly Poles and Jews, so that although the German population of Lodz continued to grow in the second half of the 19th Century, it was rapidly outgrown by other national groups. It lost the overall majority in 1880, by 1884 it was overtaken by the Poles as the largest group and shortly thereafter beaten into 3rd place by the Jews. Between 1897 and 1913 there may even have been a small decline – one which I would think lies well within the parameters of the assimilation process described above.

WW1 appears to have been fairly catastrophic economically for Lodz. The population of 522,518 in 1913 appears to have dropped to 341,892 by January 1918 (according to Rzepkowski). There is nothing to suppose that the German portion of the population would have been reduced less than the other ones. Indeed, as we discussed earlier, there may have been reasons why it would have been more. However, the reduction in the German population had already started during the run-up to WW1, it would appear. Rzepkowski notes the German population of Lodz to be 75.1 thousand in 1914 (ie 15% of the total) a very significant drop from 1913 if like is being compared with like (a question which, alas, bedevils this debate and all like it!).

The 1921 census shows that approximately half the deficit had been made up either by pre-war inhabitants returning or new ones arriving. However, this was not the case with the German part of the population which showed a marked reduction of approximately 50%.

The most likely explanations underlying these statistics lie in economics and politics, in my opinion. The early German immigrants were attracted to the area by generous contracts, grants and tax cuts first by the Prussian Government keen to Germanise and then the Russian one (and indeed Polish landowners) keen to attract German workmanship and knowhow – a process accelerated by the drive for industrialisation. Industrialisation provided an open field of opportunities initially; for entrepreneurs, managers and technicians. However, over time, these opportunities would dwindle as there was increasing competition from established German dynasties and rising local talent. This would result in a dwindling of net immigration until saturation is reached – in Lodz it appears to have happened just before the turn of the century. Also, I get the impression all was not well with the economy of Lodz even before WW1, adding to the growing pressures against immigration.

Following WW1, the Germans of Lodz, like in the rest of Poland, lost their economic privileges and, perhaps equally importantly, their status as the master race, becoming just another minority in another man’s country. No doubt, as WM suggests, without the incentives they previously enjoyed, Germany with its higher standard of living and population decline (especially in its eastern parts) became a far more attractive option, with over half of the German inhabitants of Western Poland emigrating between December 1918 and September 1921. In this context, the reduction in the number of German citizens of Lodz seems to be in the same ballpark as the rest of the country, and slightly less than average.

In short, yes there is clearly a real phenomenon as Sid says, the result of a number of converging processes, but nothing to suggest a mass forced expulsion of German residents in 1918. Having read a whole bunch of in-depth papers on the national minorities of Lodz in general and the German one in particular (the fathers of the city, bless ‘em, are keen to sponsor and fund historical research into the multicultural heritage of Lodz at ‘their’ university!) I have found not one single, solitary mention of such an event. It is probably time to file this one in the myths and legends section until some reliable evidence appears.

Sorry, not so quick after all :oops: , but hopefully comprehensive.

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Re: Is it true that a large part of Lodz's German population was expelled in or around 1918?

#39

Post by Sid Guttridge » 19 Sep 2020, 08:14

Hi Futurist,

The 1897 total is too vague to draw any conclusion as to whether the 1913 figure is above or below it. 94,053 could also be considered as "almost 100,000" Do you have anything more specific for 1897?

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: Is it true that a large part of Lodz's German population was expelled in or around 1918?

#40

Post by Futurist » 19 Sep 2020, 08:19

Yep; the exact number of Germans is 97,416 for Lodz uyezd in 1897.

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Re: Is it true that a large part of Lodz's German population was expelled in or around 1918?

#41

Post by Sid Guttridge » 19 Sep 2020, 08:26

Hi Futurist,

Thanks.

The second question is what the 1913 and 1914 figures are based upon? The 1897 census was the only one conducted by Imperial Russia?

Were there periodic local censuses?

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: Is it true that a large part of Lodz's German population was expelled in or around 1918?

#42

Post by Futurist » 19 Sep 2020, 08:28

Yes, the 1897 census was the only one conducted by the Russian Empire. It planned to hold another census in December 1915 but World War I got in the way and this census was never actually rescheduled before the Russian Revolutions of 1917 and thus never actually held. The next Russian census was in 1926, in the Soviet Union.

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Re: Is it true that a large part of Lodz's German population was expelled in or around 1918?

#43

Post by Sid Guttridge » 19 Sep 2020, 08:36

Hi gebhk,

The only push factor I can think of that might have caused a significant loss of German population in a short period during WWI would be if the Russians had deliberately evacuated tens of thousands as suspect aliens in 1914. The period after the capture of the city in 1914 by the Germans would presumably have been one of relative stability for its German population.

Is there any evidence of this?

Also, did the Germans conscript German manpower from conquered territories such as Lodz?

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: Is it true that a large part of Lodz's German population was expelled in or around 1918?

#44

Post by gebhk » 19 Sep 2020, 14:57

Sid

I don't know if the Russians had a policy of detaining suspect aliens in 1914 - though if so, I've not heard of it. Ditto regarding German conscription in conquered lands. The latter was prohibited by the war conventions so if they had, one would have expected some comment in Allied propaganda. I've not come across any.

There was however a Russian policy to evacuate industry of use to the war effort from Poland into the depths of the Empire. If this affected Lodz, the effect must have been significant because the population as a whole fell by 2/5. Lodz would have been affected disproportionately by a loss of industry because it was predominantly an industrial town. Even if the workforce was not evacuated with the factories, once the latter had gone there was not much point in staying (it is worth remembering that prior to the industrial explosion of the mid 1800s, the population of Lodz was around the 10K mark). While I don't have figures for the German population of Lodz during WW1 and its immediate aftermath, it is not unreasonable to believe that being disproportionately involved in industry, the Germans of Lodz would be disproportionately affected by its removal - specially given the technical and managerial roles of many if not most of them.

This process seemingly commenced even before the war began and, as a result, a number of Polish owned businesses located in Poland disappear from the Index of Businesses between 1911 and 1913. An example of this is the FOS precision optics factory which was moved, pretty much lock, stock and barrel from Warsaw to St Petersburg, probably in 1912. A review of the Business Indices may tell us whether similar events were taking place in Lodz. This factor may well provide a possible explanation why the German population of Lodz fell between 1913 and 1914.
Last edited by gebhk on 19 Sep 2020, 15:32, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Is it true that a large part of Lodz's German population was expelled in or around 1918?

#45

Post by gebhk » 19 Sep 2020, 15:30

Hi Sid (again)

I wholly agree with you than any statistical data of this sort should be treated with utmost caution when making comparisons. Alas I do not know what the original sources of the non-census data are. They no doubt come from assorted compilations made for local administrative use. After all, to quote the classic, 'there are only three things certain in life: death, cockroaches and taxes'. And to collect taxes, one needs lists of tax-payers.... Most recent authors sooner or later seem to refer to Janczak JK, Struktura narodowościowa Łodzi w latach 1820-. 1939 [Nationality structure in Lodz 1820-1939] in PuŚ W, Liszewski S eds.Dzieje Żydów w Łodzi 1820-1944. Wybrane problemy, [The history of Jews in Lodz 1820-1944. Selected questions]; Łódź 1991: 42-45. in these matters. This may well have the answers to your questions on the data. Unfortunately I've not been able to find this online.

Aside from the usual issues of validity and reliability, how do you know someone is a German, a Pole or a Jew. Simple - you ask him. And we all know that a million and one factors impact on the answer and that that answer may well be different from one day to the next. For one thing, the Lodz Germans were not a homogenous group. In the very grossest terms, there was the earliest group mainly catholic and mainly agrarian (imported to improve agriculture) who assimilated relatively easily. The second group, mainly protestant and mainly industrial (imported to develop industry) was relatively resistant to assimilation. The third, developed form the first two with an admixture of Poles and Jews were the Lodzmensche - people who may have spoken a kind of German ('Lodzdeutche') in their daily business life, but who felt little or no connection with or loyalty to Germany. Their primary loyalty was to their town. Whether they would describe themselves as German, Polish, Jewish or something else is anyone's guess.

Which brings me to another point. The apparent rise in the number of Germans in Lodz between 1921 and 1931, I would suggest, may be as much due to more folk being encouraged to rediscover their German roots by the increasingly nationalistic emanations from the mother country on the one hand and it being much safer and easier to do so on the other, than it was to any increase in actual head count.

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