Polish plans for Belarus during the Polish-Soviet War?

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Polish plans for Belarus during the Polish-Soviet War?

Post by Futurist » 18 Mar 2021 00:32

What exactly did Polish plans for Belarus during the Polish-Soviet War consist of? I know that people such as Jozef Pilsudski wanted to create an independent Ukrainian state east of the Zbruch River and led by Symon Petliura. However, what about Belarus? Obviously Poland outright annexed western Belarus at the end of the Polish-Soviet War in real life, but just what exactly did Poland want to do with central and eastern Belarus in the event that it would have managed to conquer and hold it during this very same war? Create a Belarusian puppet state out of this territory? If so, led by whom, exactly?

Any thoughts on all of this?

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Re: Polish plans for Belarus during the Polish-Soviet War?

Post by Martin_from_Valhalla » 18 Mar 2021 07:11

Hardly a puppet state, just an incorporated territory with bigger autonomy. More important in this war are bolshevik's plans or aims. Were they struggling to Germany through Poland to bring global revolution? Germany was in a state of pre-revolutionary chaos.

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Re: Polish plans for Belarus during the Polish-Soviet War?

Post by Futurist » 18 Mar 2021 21:07

Just how strong was the Communist position in Germany in 1920? I thought that it was already pretty weak after the defeat and destruction of the Spartacists.

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Re: Polish plans for Belarus during the Polish-Soviet War?

Post by wm » 20 Mar 2021 23:21

The Poles had no plans for Belarus. It was Polish territory (with insignificant nationalistic feelings) to be incorporated into Poland.

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Re: Polish plans for Belarus during the Polish-Soviet War?

Post by Futurist » 21 Mar 2021 20:59

Was the goal to fully Polonize its inhabitants?

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Re: Polish plans for Belarus during the Polish-Soviet War?

Post by wm » 21 Mar 2021 23:33

The problem with a question about plans during the war is it wasn't the Poles but Piłsudski alone who did the planning.
But he kept his cards close to his chest (afraid of the Allies and his political enemies in Warsaw) so we really don't know such details (if any) of his plans.

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Re: Polish plans for Belarus during the Polish-Soviet War?

Post by Futurist » 22 Mar 2021 22:47

No notes, diaries, anything of his from this time period?

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Re: Polish plans for Belarus during the Polish-Soviet War?

Post by henryk » 23 Mar 2021 20:08

viewtopic.php?f=111&t=231330&hilit=pilsudski
henryk wrote:
23 Oct 2017 19:31
There were two opposing Polish aims, that of Pilsudski, and that of National Democracy leader Roman Dmowski.
See the thread:
Pilsudski, Poland, and the Central European Union
viewtopic.php?f=111&t=192843&hilit=pilsudski
Pilsudski envisioned a Central European Union, which included the western non-ethnic Russian territories. Dmowski's position:
Pilsudski's concept was opposed within Poland itself, where National Democracy leader Roman Dmowski[32][33] argued for an ethnically purer Poland in which minorities would be Polonized.[34][35] Many Polish politicians, including Dmowski, opposed the idea of a multicultural federation, preferring instead to work for a unitary Polish nation-state.
Dmowski won out, asking the Russians for less than they were willing to offer. Polamd did achieve a decisive vicory in the war.

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Re: Polish plans for Belarus during the Polish-Soviet War?

Post by Futurist » 23 Mar 2021 21:51

Why was the Polish government during this time dominated more by Dmowski's followers than by Pilsudski's followers?

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Re: Polish plans for Belarus during the Polish-Soviet War?

Post by henryk » 24 Mar 2021 20:04

Why was Trump elected president?

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Re: Polish plans for Belarus during the Polish-Soviet War?

Post by wm » 24 Mar 2021 23:52

Futurist wrote:
23 Mar 2021 21:51
Why was the Polish government during this time dominated more by Dmowski's followers than by Pilsudski's followers?
Dmowski and his party was an established and significant political power, Piłsudski was just him and his army.
Additionally, the other political powers - the peasants, the socialists opposed Piłsudski and his war.

By the time of the Polish-Soviet War (1920), the idea of federation was firmly dead (after the Sejny Uprising and the failed 1919 Polish coup d'état in Lithuania). By that time it was obvious Lithuania, the cornerstone of the federation would not support it.
Anyway in his letter to his friend (1919) Piłsudski wrote:
I'm not an imperialist, nor a federalist - till I will have a chance to speak about it with authority - and with a gun in my pocket.
Because in God's Creation, it seems, begins to dominate the prattle about human and nations brotherhood and the little American doctrines I'm gladly lean of the side of the federalists.
so there.

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Re: Polish plans for Belarus during the Polish-Soviet War?

Post by Futurist » 25 Mar 2021 04:09

Lithuania doesn't actually strike me as being particularly crucial for such a federation due to its small population, though. Plus, Poland already had access to the Baltic Sea. What exactly am I missing here?

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Re: Polish plans for Belarus during the Polish-Soviet War?

Post by wm » 25 Mar 2021 06:07

Just a little earlier the country was called Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, Lithuania was larger than Poland itself and Belarus was part of Lithuania.

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Re: Polish plans for Belarus during the Polish-Soviet War?

Post by Futurist » 30 Mar 2021 00:22

wm wrote:
25 Mar 2021 06:07
Just a little earlier the country was called Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, Lithuania was larger than Poland itself and Belarus was part of Lithuania.
But post-World War I Lithuania was nowhere near as large as the old Lithuania was.

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Re: Polish plans for Belarus during the Polish-Soviet War?

Post by wm » 30 Mar 2021 12:30

It would be hard to resurrect the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth without one of its main parts.
According to Piłsudski (but others too), Poland and Lithuania were historic, viable states but Belarus and Ukraine weren't - they wouldn't be able to form stable countries, to survive alone.
The distinction is actually visible even today: Poland/Lithuania are democracies, but Belarus is a dictatorship, Ukraine a kleptocracy (with all due respects to all Ukrainians).

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