Did the Lithuanians, Belarusians, Volhynian Ukrainians, and Jews under Polish rule prefer Polish rule to Russian rule?

[wm]

The point is the German Jews in the thirties got all the attention, the sympathy, help of the entire world and the Ukrainian peasants didn't.

[Futurist]

Yeah, because they had a larger lobby in the West than the Ukrainian peasants had.

[gebhk]

I am somewhat sceptical that communism had much imfluence in the majority of the Kresy population. Communism, by and large, has always had the greater appeal to middle class intellectuals and, to a lesser extent perhaps, to organised industrial workers. It has had very litle appeal in the villages, which is what was predominant the popul;ation of the the Kresy, for a raft of reasons. For that matter, nationalism also tends to be a middle calss/urban poor thing. Since the Soviet Union offered communism on the one hand and a nested identity as the primary benefits, I would be rather surprised that Ukrainian (or any other) peasants would have been hugely influenced by Soviet ideology. The chance to get their own back for real and perceived insults and injuries was, if anything, the main motivating factor, I would suggest.

[wm]

Communism was modern Khmelnytsky and his uprising.
The (mostly landless) peasants and farmhands only needed confirmation of their believes that they were oppressed and the parasitic classes were responsible for that.
They didn't want to learn Marx or believe in historical materialism.
They only needed weapons to do some slaughtering.

[Futurist]

I am somewhat sceptical that communism had much imfluence in the majority of the Kresy population. Communism, by and large, has always had the greater appeal to middle class intellectuals and, to a lesser extent perhaps, to organised industrial workers. It has had very litle appeal in the villages, which is what was predominant the popul;ation of the the Kresy, for a raft of reasons. For that matter, nationalism also tends to be a middle calss/urban poor thing. Since the Soviet Union offered communism on the one hand and a nested identity as the primary benefits, I would be rather surprised that Ukrainian (or any other) peasants would have been hugely influenced by Soviet ideology. The chance to get their own back for real and perceived insults and injuries was, if anything, the main motivating factor, I would suggest.

Re: Nationalism and the rural population: I support that nationalism could have appealed more to rural people after a lot of them would have gotten educated in schools and become literate. I know that literacy and schooling is one great way to spread nationalism.

[gebhk]

True, but not a factor here, I would suggest - the schooling the unschooled would have had, would have tended to promote Polish rather than Ukrainian nationalism. And the point that Volyn, quite correctly, makes in another thread (75. Pułk Piechoty Regimental Banner and Training) is that there was litle Ukrainian nationalist or communist activity among peasant conscripts (Ukrainian and otherwise), the grief came from middle class individuals. Similarly KOP recruitment guidelines highlighted that peasants were usually a safe bet, it was the middle class and industrial workers who were the most likely to be a communist threat.

In the case of the Ukrainian peasant, I think WM makes my earlier point much more eloquently. He (the peasant not WM!) didn't give a sheep's withit about communism, nationalism or who ran the country. He just needed a Soviet and later a Nazi to give him hope, however spurious, for a future better than his often miserable lot and a gun and permission to vent his resentments on his neighbours - resentments which were often justified, sometimes not so much.

[Futurist]

True, but not a factor here, I would suggest - the schooling the unschooled would have had, would have tended to promote Polish rather than Ukrainian nationalism. And the point that Volyn, quite correctly, makes in another thread (75. Pułk Piechoty Regimental Banner and Training) is that there was litle Ukrainian nationalist or communist activity among peasant conscripts (Ukrainian and otherwise), the grief came from middle class individuals. Similarly KOP recruitment guidelines highlighted that peasants were usually a safe bet, it was the middle class and industrial workers who were the most likely to be a communist threat.

In the case of the Ukrainian peasant, I think WM makes my earlier point much more eloquently. He (the peasant not WM!) didn't give a sheep's withit about communism, nationalism or who ran the country. He just needed a Soviet and later a Nazi to give him hope, however spurious, for a future better than his often miserable lot and a gun and permission to vent his resentments on his neighbours - resentments which were often justified, sometimes not so much.

Good analysis. And Yes, Polish nationalism would be taught in Polish schools.

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi gebhk,

You post, "He (the peasant not WM!) didn't give a sheep's withit about communism, nationalism or who ran the country." I suppose that could be applied to peasants under the rule of others anywhere. The peasant's life was essentially one of day-to-day existence, not grand ideological theorizing. That was largely the preserve of educated urbanites.

Nevertheless, Poland had significant political problems with Ukrainian nationalism in Galicia in 1938-39 as neighbouring Ruthenia got increasing autonomy in Czechoslovakia. Several thousand Polish Ukrainians crossed the border and formed the most radical element of the Sic Guard there and the Ruthenian example led Ukrainian deputies in the Polish parliament to push for more autonomy within Poland for their own region.

This "threat of a good example" (as Ukrainian nationalists might see it) led Poland to seal off the border with Ruthenia in the winter of 1938/39 to prevent armed incursions by Ukrainian nationalists associated with the Sic Guard (something definitely discussed but apparently never mounted) and to mount its own terrorist/guerrilla campaign across the frontier against residual Czech state institutions and infrastructure in an effort to help Hungary occupy Ruthenia and suppress Ukrainian nationalism there. The Hungarians invaded in mid-March 1939 to prevent full Ruthenian independence. The Poles were implicated in at least one massacre of Sic Guards trying to flee back into Poland ahead of the Hungarian Army.

Cheers,

Sid

[gebhk]

Hi Sid

I think you are quite right to

suppose that could be applied to peasants under the rule of others anywhere. The peasant's life was essentially one of day-to-day existence, not grand ideological theorizing. That was largely the preserve of educated urbanites.

It is a, pretty much, universal human condition. However I would not limit this to peasants and middle class urbanites. I would suggest we are talking about the middle/upper classes and the poor in general regadless of where they lived. By and large the Polish nationalist uprisings of the 19th century, for example, were perhaps most strongly supported by the landed gentry. The rank and file of the more recent and noxious neo-nazi groups tend to be the urban poor.

The mechanisms of extreme political manifestations among the poor seem to be remarkably consistent throughout history. They are grounded in desperation at their wretched condition from which they can find no relief in existing social mechanisms. A boiling rentment of those who are, or appear to be, better off than themselves is an obvious and almost universal corollary. It is hardly surprising, especially given the almost universally inadequate education of such people, that they are easily swayed by anyone who can promise them an easy glib solution and gives them the means or even just permission to take out their frustrations on an easy and concrete target. The reason you can't get a decent job or no job at all isn't because you are lacking education and perhaps intelligence or drive, it's because the (insert local minority as appropriate) have taken your jobs away. You can't get a council flat because they have all been given to (see above) by a conspiracy in the town hall. Etc. If you kick the (see above) out, things will get better. It is no coincidence, I would suggest, that all the most abhorrent and murderous modern totalitarianisms, such as Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union and Communist China cast themselves in the most self-pitying language imaginable, from the outset, in the role of hapless victims of heinous wrongs.

I would agree with much of what you go on to say and don't think it contradicts anything I have said. BTW - I've not heard of the 'Sic Guard'. Do you perchance mean the Carpathian Sich (Карпатська Січ), or to give it's full name: the National Defense Organization Carpathian Sich? I would go further, in that many of the mothods utilised by the Polish authorities to counteract Ukrainian nationalism, while in line with common practice world-wide and often with international approval, in hindsight did nothing to help the situation. Rather, by making the lives of the poor even more wretched, merely poured fuel onto the fire.

Given the Poles' own experience of the other side of the barricade over the previous 200 years or so, it is perhaps odd that this didn't occur to the Polish decision makers earlier. On the other hand firstly it is often difficult to break away from one's role models - in this case Imperial Russia, Germany and Austria-Hungary. Secondly it is difficult to break away from received wisdom even when one's own experience clearly points to it being wrong. It's difficult, for example, to explain otherwise, the belief in Britain during the latter part of WW2 that carpet bombing of German cities would somehow 'break' German morale and bring an end to the war.

[wm]

The problem with education was that literate people could have been easily influenced by communist propaganda - leaflets, booklets were more than sufficient.

[Linkagain]

As remarked before...the Jewish Communites were divided agasint one another
Orthadox who refused to leave galut {Exhile} and wish that Messiah would come so only then they would go up to israel
Orthadox who decedied to leave galat and Go Up to Eretz Isreal
As for the Younger generations the choice of:
Left Wing Marxist Socialist pro Zionist-https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hashomer_Hatzair
Right Wing Betar Pro-zionist https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betar
Pro polish assimiliation/socialist-https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_J ... _in_Poland
Pro Soviet Communism assimilation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Co ... alei_Zion)