De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

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wm
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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by wm » 28 May 2021 22:59

That the US intervened against Iraq despite no treaty obligation is a non sequitur against "states do not fight for alliances."

If the Soviets had attacked Poland in 1923, France would have helped Poland but wouldn't send an army to Warsaw through Germany for the simple reason the Franco-Polish alliance didn't require it.

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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by ljadw » 29 May 2021 07:20

And, how would France have helped Poland in 1923 ?
In 1920, the small French arms deliveries were blocked by the German dockers .Even if in 1923 the alliance had required a French military intervention, it would not happen, because it was impossible .It was the same in 1939 : the only way to save Poland was if a French army could march before September 15 to Berlin .
And about the US and Iraq : states fight for their interests (when Iraq attacked Iran, US helped Iraq ), or for moral reasons ( which is bad ).

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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by wm » 30 May 2021 11:17

You're constantly erecting strawmen.
The alliance or the 1939 protocol didn't promise to save Poland. It wasn't an insurance policy.
France and Poland offered each other as much help as was possible and prudent to offer. That's all.

The point is that in 1939 France manipulated Poland into committing suicide, that France was dishonest, that didn't provide Poland with vital strategic information which Poland was entitled to as a long-term French ally.

In 1923 Poland would occupy Danzig and teach those communist German dockers a valuable lesson. 1920 wouldn't happen again.

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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by ljadw » 30 May 2021 11:33

France did not manipulate Poland into committing suicide : the Polish decision to refuse Hitler's demands was made independently of what the French were saying and doing .And the ''strategic information '' that France did not give to Poland had no influence at all on the Polish decision .
Poland knew that it was on its own .
The only way to prevent Hitler from attacking and occupying Poland, was for Poland to become a Soviet satellite ,which Poland refused for obvious reasons .

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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by ljadw » 30 May 2021 13:10

wm wrote:
30 May 2021 11:17
You're constantly erecting strawmen.
The alliance or the 1939 protocol didn't promise to save Poland. It wasn't an insurance policy.
France and Poland offered each other as much help as was possible and prudent to offer. That's all.

The point is that in 1939 France manipulated Poland into committing suicide, that France was dishonest, that didn't provide Poland with vital strategic information which Poland was entitled to as a long-term French ally.

In 1923 Poland would occupy Danzig and teach those communist German dockers a valuable lesson. 1920 wouldn't happen again.
Being an ally does not give you the right on so-called ''vital strategic information .''
You have only the right on specific,detailed information,if your ally has promised to give you vital strategic information ,and if he and you agree what are ''vital strategic information .''
Otherwise : you have no rights .
The French meaning of the alliance was that Poland would help France if she was attacked by Germany . For Poland, the meaning was that France would help Poland if it was attacked by Germany .
After the French decision to construct the Maginot Line, it was obvious for Poland that France would not/could not help Poland if Poland was attacked by Germany .And, Poland was accommodating itself to this situation .
That means that the whole theory of the Western Betrayal is hypocrisy : it is only a way to make the Wallies responsible for Poland's defeat .If on September 15 the Polish Army was in Berlin, no one would talk about the Western betrayal . And, even if Poland defeated the Germans, it would become a Soviet satellite .
Between 1919 and 1939 Poland survived only because of the hostility between Germany and the USSR, because of the weakness of Germany and the USSR .
Poland was not entitled to anything .

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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by wm » 30 May 2021 13:40

The ''strategic information'' had no influence at all on the Polish decision because it wasn't given. As simple as that.
That the Poles made a decision early didn't mean they couldn't have changed their minds later.

The alliance required that information was made available on "all current affairs."
It's hardly believable that an ally has the right to conceal their plans, to lie about them, to deceive.
Such thinking is distinctively of the Stalin/Mao flavour. Even Hitler in his dealings was above that.

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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by ljadw » 30 May 2021 17:53

Politics is lying and deceiving .
And, Poland did not inform France of its plans to recapture Teschen . Thus,they are not in a position to complain that France did not give them enough information .
Allies had/have the power to conceal their plans, to lie about them , to deceive . Thus, they have also the right to do it .In politics might makes right .
Mussolini did not tell Hitler about his plan to attack Greece .Because it was not the business of Hitler .
In his Weisung 24 Hitler forbade explicitly to inform the Japanese of Barbarossa .Because it was not the business of Japan .
Hitler did not inform Japan about his intention to sign a treaty with the USSR,and Japan did not tell him about the coming attack on Pearl Harbour .Because it was not Hitler's business .
Did Poland tell France in 1920 about its intention to march to Kiev ?

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