De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

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Art
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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by Art » 03 May 2021 09:02

wm wrote:
02 May 2021 22:33
Had the Poles by any chance been willing to concede to it under Western pressure, the Soviets would undoubtedly have demanded that Russian troops be allowed to enter Poland in peacetime.
That's pure fantasy, because nothing like this was ever discussed in the 1939's negotiations.

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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by wm » 03 May 2021 21:07

But the author didn't say it was discussed, didn't he? He wrote, "had the Poles by any chance been willing".

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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by wm » 03 May 2021 21:13

Michael Kenny wrote:
02 May 2021 22:48
Ever hear of the lesser of two (we)evils?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-aPp7K ... Dinerboy11
Stalin was at best unknown evil and a person who had killed millions already - in comparison, Hitler was still a minor evil.
The lesser evil was to ally with Hitler against the USSR and to destroy it.

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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by Michael Kenny » 03 May 2021 21:49

wm wrote:
03 May 2021 21:13


Stalin was at best unknown evil and a person who had killed millions already - in comparison, Hitler was still a minor evil.
The lesser evil was to ally with Hitler against the USSR and to destroy it.
When I first visited The Sikorski Archive in London they had a number of old people there as 'guides' I was paired with an elderly lady who help me navigate the documents. When we got chatting she explained she was taken prisoner by The Soviets at the end of WW2 and spent some time in a work camp. She hated both Germans and Russian passionately (normal for every Pole I have asked) but stated that whilst German captivity had a very high mortality rate with the Soviets you usualy got released. She said that in her camp she even received a small wage. I do not think she would share your ranking of the Nazi threat.
Was it a fifth of the pre-war Polish population Hitler killed ?

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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by Michael Kenny » 03 May 2021 22:44

wm wrote:
03 May 2021 21:13


Stalin was at best unknown evil and a person who had killed millions already - in comparison, Hitler was still a minor evil.
That is a far-right canard. I thought such things were forbidden.

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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by Art » 04 May 2021 05:59

wm wrote:
03 May 2021 21:07
But the author didn't say it was discussed, didn't he?
Yes, that's his pure fantasy (or, putting it more politely, conjecture) which is not based on any substance and therefore bears no weight.

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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by gebhk » 04 May 2021 07:58

When I first visited The Sikorski Archive in London they had a number of old people there as 'guides' I was paired with an elderly lady who help me navigate the documents. When we got chatting she explained she was taken prisoner by The Soviets at the end of WW2 and spent some time in a work camp. She hated both Germans and Russian passionately (normal for every Pole I have asked) but stated that whilst German captivity had a very high mortality rate with the Soviets you usualy got released. She said that in her camp she even received a small wage. I do not think she would share your ranking of the Nazi threat.
Hardly relevant to perceptions before the war which were influenced by actual experience of the Soviets in 1919-21 and the Germans in WW1 and not by crystal-ball-gazing into the future.
Was it a fifth of the pre-war Polish population Hitler killed ?
And in the period the Soviets ruled half of Poland (1939-41), it is likely that the losses in the Soviet half were, per capita, greater than in the German half. But so what. None of this is relevant to perceptions before the war.
That is a far-right canard. I thought such things were forbidden.
Yes, funny how the rules apply to some mass murderers and denial, but not others.

And no, just because I don't think mass murder by the Soviets is OK, it does not make me a Nazi sympathiser or a member of the 'far right'. Nor does the fact that I disagree with apologists for Stalin.

Given how far this topic has strayed from the original question which has, I think, been fully answered, I would suggest it should be put to rest.

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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by Sid Guttridge » 04 May 2021 09:53

Hi Guys,

As I understand it, France was contractually obliged not not sign a separate peace. It did not do so. France went close to national destruction in the war it joined to protect Poland. How far did Poles feeling "betrayed" expect France to go on their behalf?

The Poles were themselves embroiled in conflicts with all their neighbours except Latvia and Romania. In 1938 alone they threatened the Lithuanians, the Czechs and the Slovaks with military force and actually sent guerrillas into the Ruthenia. Any commitment to Poland was high risk, which was why the French only guaranteed Poland against Germany. France kept to its contractual agreement by not signing a separate peace.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by gebhk » 04 May 2021 12:20

As I understand it, France was contractually obliged not not sign a separate peace. It did not do so.
I'll bite. Can you expand?
The Poles were themselves embroiled in conflicts with all their neighbours except
So was everybody else - so what, in the context of this thread?

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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by Sid Guttridge » 04 May 2021 12:45

Hi gebhk,

Poland was pursuing its border disputes aggressively in 1938. That year it threatened the Lithuanians, Czechs and Slovaks with military force and sent guerrillas into Ruthenia. As Poland was a high risk partner, attachment to it held the possibility of involvement in several Polish disputes. So the French were cagey, only guaranteeing Poland against Germany.

Under the French Guarantee to Poland France could not sign a separate peace. It didn't.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by gebhk » 04 May 2021 14:56

Under the French Guarantee to Poland France could not sign a separate peace. It didn't.
So the French didn't sign an armistice or the Paris Protocols, or am I missing something?
Poland was pursuing its border disputes aggressively in 1938. That year it threatened the Lithuanians, Czechs and Slovaks with military force and sent guerrillas into Ruthenia. As Poland was a high risk partner, attachment to it held the possibility of involvement in several Polish disputes. So the French were cagey, only guaranteeing Poland against Germany.
But since it is the guarantee against Germany that concerns us, what is the relevance of the rest?

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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by wm » 04 May 2021 15:29

Sid Guttridge wrote:
04 May 2021 09:53
As I understand it, France was contractually obliged not not sign a separate peace.
When did that happen? Because never.

It's about the signed by France with Poland in bad faith military agreement anyway.
So what the Poles were themselves embroiled, which country in Europe wasn't? The Czechs invaded all their neighbours at the end of the Great War and were embroiled much more massively, weren't they?

If the French didn't like it they didn't have to sign the agreement.

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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by wm » 04 May 2021 15:58

Art wrote:
04 May 2021 05:59
wm wrote:
03 May 2021 21:07
But the author didn't say it was discussed, didn't he?
Yes, that's his pure fantasy (or, putting it more politely, conjecture) which is not based on any substance and therefore bears no weight.
It's based on the fact that Voroshilov never specified when the occupation would begin. He said Poland/Romania/Finland/the Baltic States must allow Soviet occupation of their territories but never said when and the Allies never asked about it.

It was going to be discussed after the Allies had agreed to the Red Army presence in Poland but then he demanded Polish representatives were to be delivered! It was manipulative staling tactics all along.

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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by wm » 04 May 2021 16:49

Michael Kenny wrote:
03 May 2021 21:49
She said that in her camp she even received a small wage. I do not think she would share your ranking of the Nazi threat.
Actually, the Germans paid their Polish slave workers a better wage, delivered better food, offered better housing than the Soviets to theirs. Even (working) Polish prisoners in Auschwitz received a small wage. The main danger for the slave workers was usually British/American bombs, not the Germans.

The Soviets killed Polish POWs by tens of thousands no? But the Germans released many of them home and the others spent the war undisturbed in German POWs camps (including the Polish Jewish!)

Actually, pre-war Hitler liked the Poles (at least the contemporary Polish leadership) which is reflected in the Goebbels diaries where he writes we must learn from the Poles (i.e., from Sanacja) how to rule Germany efficiently.
And Hitler spent six months patiently negotiating and trying to convince the Poles to cooperate with him.
With which country did he ever negotiate even a half that long?

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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by Michael Kenny » 04 May 2021 17:23

wm wrote:
04 May 2021 16:49

Actually, the Germans paid their Polish slave workers a better wage, delivered better food, offered better housing .......................
The main danger for the slave workers was usually British/American bombs, not the Germans......................

But the Germans released many of them.......................

Actually, pre-war Hitler liked the Poles................
Not that I gave you much in the first place but all your credibility is gone.

Have you ever heard of the UK saying about a Scotsman and a ray of sunshine?

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