Career Information Niesiołowski-Gawin von Niesiołowice

Discussions on all aspects of Poland during the Second Polish Republic and the Second World War. Hosted by Piotr Kapuscinski.
User avatar
IanE
Member
Posts: 302
Joined: 28 Sep 2007 05:14
Location: Australia

Re: Career Information Niesiołowski-Gawin von Niesiołowice

Post by IanE » 18 May 2021 22:18

Hi Steen,

Just so I understand: Both Wiktor and Jan were promoted to Lieutenant General in 1920? (by decree L 2126 of 1st May 1920). Is it correct to say that both Wiktor and Jan skipped the Major General rank, going from Brigade General to Lieut.Gen.

Jan was a Colonel on his retirement, but was subsequently promoted to Brigade General in 1923 with a seniority date of 1919?

Is the following correct for Jan Niesiolowski:
Promotions:
1918/1919 pułkownik (Colonel)
02.08.1919 Generał brygady (Brigade General)in retirement (Dziennik Personalny, 1923 No. 70 of 7 Nov.[/b])
01.05.1920 Lieutnent Generał (Lieutnent General) in retirement (by decree L 2126 of 1st May 1920)

Career:
II.1919- VIII.1919 Chief of Department X (Communications) Ministry of War
1919 -1920 Chief of Department II (Technical Communications) Ministry of war
10.VIII.1920 – IX.1921 Chief of Staff, Ministry of Military Affairs
IX.1921 Retired

User avatar
Steen Ammentorp
Member
Posts: 3247
Joined: 13 Mar 2002 12:48
Location: Denmark

Re: Career Information Niesiołowski-Gawin von Niesiołowice

Post by Steen Ammentorp » 19 May 2021 05:20

Hi Ian,

A bit puzzled myself so I have tried to understand the Polish rank structure at the time. It would seem at they operated with 3 generals ranks from 27 Mar 1919:

generał broni
generał porucznik
generał podporucznik

Both Jan and Wiktor were promoted to generał podporucznik (English translation Sublieutenant-General or 2nd Lieutenant-General?) from the rank of pułkownik (Colonel). So I made a translation error in my previous post which blurred the picture. Later they changed the ranks having already introduced the Marszałek Polski rank (19 Mar 1920) to:

Marszałek Polski
generał broni
generał dywizji
generał brygady

I am not entirely sure when these ranks were introduced, but properly 3 May 1922. So Wiktor was recertified as generał brygady on 3 May 1922 as a serving officer, while Jan as a retired officer wasn't recertified until Nov 1923 (In accordance with the Act of 2 Aug 1919, I don't know what it says). So in short they didn't skip any ranks, just a result bad translation of the ranks.
Kind Regards
Steen Ammentorp
The Generals of World War Two

User avatar
IanE
Member
Posts: 302
Joined: 28 Sep 2007 05:14
Location: Australia

Re: Career Information Niesiołowski-Gawin von Niesiołowice

Post by IanE » 19 May 2021 06:29

Steen,

Thanks for clearing that up for me, I very much appreciate your efforts.

Regards,
Ian

gebhk
Member
Posts: 1669
Joined: 25 Feb 2013 20:23

Re: Career Information Niesiołowski-Gawin von Niesiołowice

Post by gebhk » 19 May 2021 09:09

Hi Steen/Ian

I will follow this up but somewhere there was floating about the rank of 'general' which may have been replaced by the rank of Marshal. I believe this rank was resurrected after WW2, specifically for the chief of the general staff after the September 1939 experience, to avoid the problem of the CGS not being able to issue orders to Army Commanders who outranked him.

De meritum, I think they started with a section of the German Army structure and then simplified and unified it. On the bright side they weren't tempted to introduce the nosebleed-inducing Austrian rank system!

The start date given by Steen for Jan's appointment as Chief of Staff of the Ministry is consistent with the historical structural diagram.

My best guess for Jan's career is
II.19 - V.19 Chief of Dept X (Military Communicatons). In May 1919 the Dept was renamed: Dept II (Technical Troops)
V.19 - ? Chief of Dept II (Technical Troops)
? - ? VIII.20 Chief of Branch IV (Supply and Communications)
10.VIII.20 - IX.21 Chief of Staff MSWojsk
1.IX.21 Retired

? Lived in Warsaw
Died 7.IV.1940 - circumstances and location unknown.

I may be able to secure access to the military personnel files of both brothers, thanks to the good will of a friend, but it will not be until July at the earliest. Ian - how detailed biographical information are you after?

User avatar
IanE
Member
Posts: 302
Joined: 28 Sep 2007 05:14
Location: Australia

Re: Career Information Niesiołowski-Gawin von Niesiołowice

Post by IanE » 19 May 2021 09:38

Thank you for fleshing out Jan's career in the Polish Army. Much appreciated.

Interesting question on how detailed would I like the biographical information. I never though I would get such an offer, but would I be greedy if I said
what ever you can get? Although I would very much like to ascertain if there are actual dates for Jan's various promotions, what date he joined the Polish Army, any awards other than the two we know about, and of course the same sort of information for his brother. Do you think either of the personnel files would have ID photos?

Regards,
Ian

gebhk
Member
Posts: 1669
Joined: 25 Feb 2013 20:23

Re: Career Information Niesiołowski-Gawin von Niesiołowice

Post by gebhk » 25 May 2021 11:57

Hi Ian E

Updating some details of the career of Victor/Wiktor

9.5.19 Accepted into the WP with the rank of colonel
14.6.19 Apppointed head of the Military Technical Institute with powers of a chief of department of the Ministry of War.
8.10.21 Appointed Commander of the Military Faculty of the Lwow Polytechnic
? 1923 Appointed 2 i/c Corps Area VI (DOK VI), Lwow.
30.4.24 Appointed member, Officer Adjudicating Tribunal
31.10.24 Retired (thereafter resided in Vienna and Mödling (Austria) until his death 7.4.1945)

As I suspected, Wiktor (and probably his brother Jan, too) fell into a group of generals (ex-Austro-Hungarian professionals with technical expertise) that Pilsudski had a low opinion of (I should be able to locate the exact individual opinions given in the fullness of time). Like many gifted and experienced amateurs, Pilsudski seemed to have a natural dislike for expert professionals in his field. This was no doubt mutual, but Pilsudski's opinions carried real clout after the war and this may well explain the career nosedive of both brothers as soon as the war ended and they were no longer needed.

Incidentally, much to my surprise, some of Victor's textbooks still appear to be relatively easily obtainable, even today!

Please drop me a line privately as I have some stuff that you may be interested in and which I won't be able to upload here.

User avatar
IanE
Member
Posts: 302
Joined: 28 Sep 2007 05:14
Location: Australia

Re: Career Information Niesiołowski-Gawin von Niesiołowice

Post by IanE » 25 May 2021 21:47

A big thank you very much for your efforts in assisting me to put together a picture of the brothers careers.

Regards,
Ian

gebhk
Member
Posts: 1669
Joined: 25 Feb 2013 20:23

Re: Career Information Niesiołowski-Gawin von Niesiołowice

Post by gebhk » 24 Jul 2021 08:25

Hi Ian E
I have obtained the contents of both brothers' personnel files from CAW, thanks to the good endeavours of a friend. The files are suspiciously thin with the record of their service in the Polish army virtually non-existent. Furthermore, there is evidence that documents relating to their Polish service have been removed at some point. I am struggling against the conspiracy theory bacillus but finding it difficult not to succumb!

I will go through the files more carefully and add anything new that I can find. This may take a little time because much of this is hand-written (aka a spider fell into an inkwell and then crawled over a piece of paper in its death throws) albeit there won't be much.

Bestest
K

User avatar
IanE
Member
Posts: 302
Joined: 28 Sep 2007 05:14
Location: Australia

Re: Career Information Niesiołowski-Gawin von Niesiołowice

Post by IanE » 24 Jul 2021 12:14

K,

Many thanks for your efforts to date. Strange that the files have been 'altered/thinned' ...strange to say the least.

Regards,
Ian

User avatar
IanE
Member
Posts: 302
Joined: 28 Sep 2007 05:14
Location: Australia

Re: Career Information Niesiołowski-Gawin von Niesiołowice

Post by IanE » 07 Aug 2021 21:38

Double post please disregard.

Return to “Poland 1919-1945”