Were Polish Red Army soldiers traitors?

Discussions on all aspects of Poland during the Second Polish Republic and the Second World War. Hosted by Peter K
VeleV
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Post by VeleV » 12 Jul 2003 17:28

Davey Boy wrote:
oleg wrote:well since you like that kind of reading -what was the detah rate amongSoviet POWs in Polish POW camps after the Russo-Polish war.



Well, about 25,000 Soviet POWs died in Poland. But Russia now claims the figure was over 100,000 - which is not true.


Anyway, Velev, you think Polish people had respect for German soldiers? What the hell are you talking about?

The German occupation was barbaric, and the word respect doesn't come into it.

The initial Soviet occupation was similar, but the post-war situation was very different.


Well then maybe my family and other Polish families I have met are all brainwashed because anytime German soldiers come into discussion my granma is the first to say that when they came to their village the Germans brought fresh bread with them, asked for soap and abucket with water and minded their own business - no questions no rude behavior - and when the Russians came they asked for nothing except for my grannys sister...for rape.

And these sorts of stories I heard from more then one person!

Davey - I guess you haven't heard about Polish National Socialism?
The name Roman Dmowski does not say much to you?


I guess you also forget that many Poles were anti-semetic so OBVIOUSLY they would look at a German with a friendlier grin then to a Russian.

Davey Boy
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Post by Davey Boy » 12 Jul 2003 19:00

VeleV wrote:
Well then maybe my family and other Polish families I have met are all brainwashed because anytime German soldiers come into discussion my granma is the first to say that when they came to their village the Germans brought fresh bread with them, asked for soap and abucket with water and minded their own business - no questions no rude behavior - and when the Russians came they asked for nothing except for my grannys sister...for rape.

And these sorts of stories I heard from more then one person!

Davey - I guess you haven't heard about Polish National Socialism?
The name Roman Dmowski does not say much to you?


I guess you also forget that many Poles were anti-semetic so OBVIOUSLY they would look at a German with a friendlier grin then to a Russian.



Let's not rely too much on anecdotal evidence. Let's just look at the facts.

The Germans killed three times as many Poles as the Russians, and levelled Warsaw to the ground.

I guess I don't have to tell you about crimes like shooting patients in Warsaw hospitals, burning people alive, killing babies with bayonets or throwing them out of windows...? Or perhaps I do?

And I don't see what Roman Dmowski has anything to do with this. Just because he was a Polish NS doesn't mean he liked Germans. In fact, he was pro-Slavic.

I don't know what part of the country your family comes from, but I can tell you that life in the large cities during the German occupation was hell.

The Russians did plenty of damage when they crossed into Poland twice, but to say that Germans were somehow better is absurd.

VeleV
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Post by VeleV » 12 Jul 2003 21:10

Well I have family in the following areas of Poland: Warsaw (most of), Przemysl (almost on the border of Ukrain) and Krakow.

Read some books written by REGULAR Poles - Russians were way more feared because they were brutal and the stuff you are describing by the Germans seriously makes me laugh - my grandfather owned a famous bar in downtown Warsaw and said the Germans were some of the nicest soldiers he had the pleasure of meeting and the stories you tell are nothing but lies.

Davey Boy
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Post by Davey Boy » 13 Jul 2003 03:07

VeleV wrote:Well I have family in the following areas of Poland: Warsaw (most of), Przemysl (almost on the border of Ukrain) and Krakow.

Read some books written by REGULAR Poles - Russians were way more feared because they were brutal and the stuff you are describing by the Germans seriously makes me laugh - my grandfather owned a famous bar in downtown Warsaw and said the Germans were some of the nicest soldiers he had the pleasure of meeting and the stories you tell are nothing but lies.


Gee, that's so nice. But I'm beginning to wonder about your family.

It sounds like they were colluding with the invader while other families were being wiped out.

You want some detailed stories of German atrocities in Poland?

Here's a nice list. Here you'll find crimes by the German SS, Wehrmacht, as well as the Ukrainian thugs hired by the Nazis to scare the crap out of Poles.

Enjoy...

Living barricades of Poles.

Record No. 117:

"On August 7, at 9 p. m., they hunted us out of the Ministry of Commerce and Industry building, No. 2, Elektoralna Street. There were several hundreds of us, driven here from various burning houses. They drove us through the cellars of the Ministry. In the passage, a German dragged me aside and tried to violate me, but after a moment he chose a new victim from another group. Wanting to get rid of me, he took out his revolver and aimed it at my forehead. At this moment someone else passed, and he ran after that person, shooting. I took advantage of this and ran up to the Ministry of Finance, and then through the burning streets to No. 5, Solna Street, where they kept us the whole night until 11 the next morning. They then robbed us of all our watches and valuables, and drove us on through Mirowski Square and Elektoralna Street towards the suburb of Wola. In the Square I saw huge bomb-craters, and also burning corpses. The streets all round were on fire. At the intersection of Chloldna and Wolska Streets, and Towarowa Street, and Kercelli Place we stopped. From Kercelli Place the Insurgents were firing towards Towarowa Street. The Germans who were going into the fighting stopped us and made of us a living barricade, under threats of being shot, they ordering us to lie down across the street from one side to the other. With our backs turned to the Insurgents, we knelt or crouched and the Germans placed themselves on the ground behind us, or knelt on one knee, firing over our heads towards Kercelli Place. There were 23 of us including (two children), mostly young women. It is difficult to describe what we felt during the two hours the fighting lasted. We were all prepared to die and said the Rosary aloud. Bullets whistled over our heads, or past our ears. The noise of the German guns nearly deafened us. As

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if by some miracle, the bullets only hit the Germans. When the first German fell we were paralysed with fear. My mother told me: "If I am shot remember not to shed one tear; do not complain, preserve the dignity of a Polish woman Show no weakness in their presence". Only the children wept bitterly and were greatly afraid.

"The Germans were bewildered by the fact that only they were falling. They ordered the men to drag the bodies aside. We thought they would take their revenge on us. Stupefied and astonished they looked towards the Insurgent posts, and then at our quiet, resigned attitude; and the children clinging to their mothers.

"At last, they let us go."

Record No. 247:

"On August 7, 1944, by order of the SS people from the entire town district were compelled to leave their houses, which were at once set on fire. We went in crowds of several thousands, driven and pushed by SS-men. When anyone fell, struck by a rifle-butt, those who wanted to help were struck likewise. We went through Bednarska Street ‘and Krakowskie Przedmiescie, towards Trebacka Street. On Marshal Square the men were separated from the women; people wept and despaired. In the Saxon Garden shots were heard from the Market Place. The insurgents were firing. The SS-men began to make living barricades of us. They ordered us to lie down, beat and pushed us. Soon a rampart of living bodies was formed. People wept and cursed, but the SS-men began to fire from behind it.

"The firing stopped. We went forward again under an escort of SS-men. The Ukrainians robbed us of our watches and valuables, and tore our paper money into pieces. On the Zelazna Brama Place we saw near the Market Hall a pile of

suit-cases and trunks. ,Whoever had a good suit-case had to

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give it up, and it was added to the heap. We saw motor-trucks coming to take away our belongings.

"We continued our march. A car stopped and some SS-officers got out. They looked attentively at the passers-by, took from our ranks three pretty young girls, the two sisters R. and an unknown girl, and drove off. The girls cried and tried to escape from their caresses. An old woman fell. An SS-officer shot her through the back of the head. Again curses were heard; the spirit of revolt and thirst for revenge surged in the hearts of thousands of people.

"In the church at Wola they stole our remaining belongings. All young girls were detained, even those of not more than 12 or 13. We older women were taken on with the children in the direction of the Western Station and then by train to Pruszkow, where they shut us up in a huge, dark, damp factory hall ankle-deep in mud. Moaning was heard in the darkness; a woman gave birth to a child without any help, and without a drop of water. A woman-doctor was among us, but what could she do without instruments, water, or light. She had only matches. The child was born dead.

"At the other end of the hall an old woman lay dying. Several people recited prayers for the dying, while others sat listlessly, absolutely broken, and others again thought of how to escape.

"At daybreak they let us out of the hall. We went on. There were several thousands of us, men, women and children. The SS-men fired over our heads. They took us to the station. We started hungry and thirsty, on our journey to an unknown destination. At wayside stations Polish people gave us coffee, bread and tomatoes."

Record No. 71:


"When I was wounded and in hospital, about the middle of August (I do not remember the exact date), a group of 20 or 30 men and women were driven in. They were dreadfully burnt.

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They had been evacuated from the shelters under some houses in Wolska Street. When they had been in the streets, Vlassov’s men threw inflammable liquid over them and drove them among the burning houses. Their clothes at once caught fire, especially the women’s light dresses, and several of them could go no further. The others struggled on terribly burnt. As they could not walk any further, they were taken to, the hospital. Their sufferings were awful; the eyes of some were burnt out, faces were burnt, others had open wounds on the whole body. Only one-third of these victims survived; the others died after inhuman suffering."

Burning Corpses.

Record No. 506:

"I was taken from Dlugosz Street (as a civilian) at 6 a. m. on August 6, 1944, and led to Sokolowska Street to the so-called Arbeitskommando head-quarters. Next day I volunteered for work with 50 other thinking that in this way I should be better off. We were sent to a house opposite St. Adalbert’s Church in Wolska Street, where about six hundred bodies of men, women and children were lying in heaps. Near by were a few dozen more, which we added to the heap. Then we went to No. 60, Wolska Street, where, on both sides of the courtyard lay the bodies of more than 100 men, as far was we could judge, victims of a mass execution. In the garden of this same house we found in a thicket the bodies of more than a dozen women, children, and babies, shot through the back of the bead. We carried out from the house at the corner ,of Plocka and Wolska Street (a large yellow house) several dozens of bodies of men, women and children, partly burnt, who had been shot through the back of the head. From a house in

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Plocka Street, between Wolska and Gorczewska Streets, we carried out about 100 bodies. In one of the houses we found the half-burnt body of a man holding two children in the arms. When we returned to No. 60, Wolska Street, we made a wooden platform on which we laid the dead; and then we cleared the ground of all traces of the German crimes, such as documents, clothes, or linen, which we placed on the pile of dead, sprinkled with petrol, and set alight. While we were thus burning the bodies, a drunken SD officer arrived in a car. He picked out three men of about 20 or 30 from a group of refugees passing by. He shot them through the back of the head in the course of a "friendly" conversation. After having murdered the first man he ordered us to throw him on the burning pyre before the eyes of the remaining two.

"On Aug. 8, 1944, they led us to the yard of the "Ursus" works in Wolska Street. The whole courtyard, about 50 metres (55 yards) square was strewn with dead bodies so thickly that it was impossible to pass without treading on them. Half of them were of women with children, often with infants. All the bodies bore traces of robbery. Their position showed that they had each been murdered separately and in an especially bestial way. The number of bodies burnt there amounted, as far as I could estimate, to more than six hundred. Their clothes and suit-cases showed them to be refugees. When we were transporting bodies from neighbouring houses I found a great number of corpses in a flooded cellar in a house at the corner of Skierniewicka Street. We could not get out more than a few dozen of them, as the water was too high. I suppose they had been thrown in here after having been murdered in the courtyard, where we still found more than a dozen bodies. Then they took us to the "Franaszek" works in Wolska Street, where we burnt in the same way as before about the same number of bodies as in the "Ursus" works, mostly of women and children. On one of the following days they took us to work in Sowinski Park, where again the bodies were

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mostly those of women and children; I found even pregnant women. The position of these bodies lying in a row seemed to be proof of a mass execution. We then burnt more than a thousand on two pyres. They made us search the bodies and give fall valuables to the SD-men. As to paper money, we were ordered to burn it, together with all other evidence of the crime. We worked there one whole day. Next day they took us to No. 24, Wolska Street (the ,,Wenecja" playground), where we brought bodies from the sector ,of Wolska Street between Mlynarska and Karolkowa and burnt over two hundred. On the same day we burnt about 200 corpses at No. 4, Wolska Street. In a house at the corner of Wronia and Chlodna streets we burnt about fifty bodies which were there lying half-burnt. I then saw a non-commissioned SD-officer murder an old woman off about 80 who was passing along Chlodna Street, and whose body we added to the burning pyre. In the Machlejd factory building we threw bodies brought from neighbouring houses into the burning cellars. All next day we worked on the burning of bodies in the grounds of St. Lazarus’s Hospital in Wolska Street. We found the bodies of the murdered patients and of the staff in the hospital wards in beds, on the staircases, in the passages and in the cellars. From what I saw there, I suppose that all the patients and the whole of the staff were murdered. In most cases their bodies had been burnt in the cellars. After having partly burnt the bodies in St. Lazarus’s Hospital, we also burnt many in houses the addresses of which I do not remember. After returning to the hospital grounds, we found there the bodies of forty newly murdered men. On one of the next days we burnt about one hundred corpses in the sector of Mlynarska Street between Wolska and Gorczewska Street; about one hundred also in the courtyard of the Michler works and about the same number in Ptasia Street. Towards evening we removed all traces of crime from the grounds of St. Lazarus’s Hospital. Then I fell ill and ceased working on the burning of bodies.

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"From the reports of my companions in other working parties I conclude that this work of wiping out all traces of mass murder lasted until the middle of September, 1944. The work was organised as follows. A gang for the burning of bodies contained one hundred men, divided into two lots of fifty, strictly segregated from the remainder of the Arbeitskommando. The work was done under the supervision of fifteen SD-men under the command of an SD-officer. Part of the men prepared and arranged the pyre, and the others brought the bodies from the neighbouring houses. I was informed at this time that an order to stop the executions had been given on the morning of Aug. 6, 1944. During this period (I cannot give the exact date) I saw the bodies of about 20 priests. At various times I saw individual old men and priests being murdered. For instance, in Zelazna Street an SD-man shot down two sick old women.

"After the pyres on the "Wenecja" play-ground had burnt out, the ashes were thrown into the air-raid-protection trenches there. Our party of 50 men worked from Aug. 6 to 15 at the intersection of Chlodna and Wolska Streets. The second party worked in the sector of Gorczewska Street with cross-roads where there is an intersection, but I have no precise information about their work.

"I cannot guarantee the accuracy of the dates I have given above, and the number of burnt bodies is only approximate, but it must certainly have been not less but rather more than I have said."

Crimes at Marymont

Record No. 189:

At the time of the Rising I was in my own house, No. 29, Maria Kazimiera Street, Marymont. On Sep. 14, 1944, the bombing of Marymont greatly increased, and at about

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2 o’clock the adjoining houses began to burn. The Insurgents retreated from our part of the city, and only the civilian population was left.

I, with my husband and my parents-in-law and other inhabitants of our house, about 30 of us altogether, were in the shelter in the garden. From there I saw German soldiers and soldiers from the army of General Vlassov knocking at a house at the back of ours - No. 2/4 Dembinski Street. When the door opened, the inhabitants began to file out slowly (men, women and children); a German soldier, standing a few steps from the front door, shot them through the back of the head. In this way about a hundred people were killed. The rest were driven into the field. Shortly after we heard shots coming from the direction in which they had been taken. (Among them was one priest). From the owner of this house I learnt afterwards that in this group the men had been separated from the women and all shot. Later I saw Vlassov’s men rush into a school building at No. 21, Maria Kazimiera Street, and order all those who were there (many people) to go out into the yard. Meanwhile our house began to burn; we came out of our shelter and went into the adjoining school, from the windows of which we saw further incidents. The Germans ordered people who were in the school yard to go out into Maria Kazimiera Street, where they were joined by others from No. 21. Some refused to go and began to turn back; then the soldiers fired at them from all sides, killing them all. Among those who had been previously driven from the school was a woman with a child in a perambulator. She was killed with the others in Maria Kazimiera Street. A few moments afterwards I saw a soldier come over to the perambulator and shoot the child.

We stayed in this school till the next day. On Sep. 15, 1944, a tank drove up to it and opened fire, destroying the upper floors. We, with the exception of my husband, who went I do not know where, then returned to the shelter at No, 21. For

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three consecutive nights I tried to find my husband. While looking for him I saw the corpses of the people who had been killed in front of No. 2/4, Dembinski Street. About a hundred lay in disorder: men, women and children. Among them I recognised my brother-in-law, his son, and many acquaintances, former occupants of Number 2/4, Dembinski Street.

Record No. 17/11:

On Aug. 1, 1944, I went to Zoliborz to buy some food, but owing to the outbreak of the Rising could not return to Praga where I lived. For several weeks I stayed with casual acquaintances. On Aug. 2, I went to Marymont, where I stayed at No. 29, Maria Kazimiera Street, which at that moment was in the hands of the Insurgents. On September 14 the Germans began to put down the Rising in that section in the following way: About 20 tanks came from the direction of Bielany and opened fire on various houses. The Insurgents retreated from the territory of Zoliborz without fighting.

Thus the tanks came without difficulty to No. 29, Maria Kazimiera Street. Several SS-men rushed into the courtyard throwing hand grenades into the cellars and in this way forced the frightened civilians to come out.

Then we all were told to leave. I was in the uniform of a railway worker. One of the Germans pulled off my cap and beat me for no reason. We were ordered to cross the street to a house which had previously been burnt. There were 32 of us in all, including men, women, small children and even an infant 6 months old. Here we were taken into a burnt-out flat, and ordered to kneel down with our hands up facing our persecutors. A machine gun was placed before us.

The execution began at 2 p. m. Several series of shots were fired into our group. I got a superficial wound in my skull. I fell; the corpses of two young men immediately fell on me. While lying I still got shots in my left arm, hand, fingers and

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feet. When the execution was over SS-men came back three times, killing the wounded and throwing two grenades each time. Owing to this I got (pieces of shrapnel in my fingers.

So I lay for four hours, till 6 p. m. Then a WH soldier came in, probably to loot the place of execution, and seeing that I moved, helped me to free myself from the corpses, comforting me and telling me not to be frightened any more. He also pulled out two women who had been saved by a miracle, though their hands were shattered, and two children who had been saved because their parents had protected them with their own bodies. The soldier who had helped us put us under the care of a wounded soldier, also from the WH, who conducted us to an evacuation point at Zoliborz (in CIWF). Here I parted from my companions in misfortune.

Executions in the Market Halls

Record No. 23/II.

During the Rising, on leaving the house where I lived, No 30 Ogrodowa Street, I found myself in a shelter of the Ministry of Industry and Commerce, No 2 Elektoralna Street. This was on August 7, 1944. In the shelter there were several hundred people, mostly women and children. In the afternoon of this day, after the Insurgents had retreated from Elektoralna Street, a German outpost was set in front of the gateway of the Ministry. About 9 o’clock in the evening 2 gendarmes entered the shelter and ordered all the men to go out. The soldier who stood on guard assured us that we were only going to work. We were led out three by three (we were about 150 men) to Mirowski Square, among the buildings of the two Market Halls. Here we were ordered to remove the corpses, scores of which were lying on the ground, and after that, rubble from the gutters and the

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roadway. There were about a hundred Poles on the square when we came, all busy cleaning it up, and some hundreds of German gendarmes, who behaved very brutally: beating the Poles, kicking them, and calling them Polnische Banditen. At a certain moment they stopped our work and ordered those who were not Poles to step forward. One man who had White-Russian documents did so, and was immediately released. After an hour and a half’s work, the gendarmes ordered us to form threes. I found myself in the second rank. We were all made to stand with our hands up. An old man in the front rank, who could not hold his hands up any longer, was cruelly struck in the face by a gendarme. After 10 minutes five rows of three were marched off under the escort of five gendarmes armed with tommy guns to the Market Hall in Chlodna Street. By chance I heard the names of two of the gendarmes who shouted to each other, Lipinski and Walter. When we entered the building after passing two gates I saw, almost in the centre of the Hall, a deep hole in which a fire was burning; it must have been sprinkled with petrol because of the dense black smoke. We were put under a wall on the left side of the entrance near a lavatory. We stood separately with faces turned to the wall and hands up.

After a few minutes I heard a series of shots and I fell. Lying on the ground I heard the moans and groans of people lying close to me and also more shots. When the firing ceased I heard the gendarmes counting those who lay on the ground; they only counted up to thirteen. Then they began to look for two more who were missing. They found a father and son hiding in the adjoining lavatory. They brought them out, and I heard the voice of the boy shouting "Long live Poland", and then shots and moans. Some time later I heard the voices of approaching Poles; cautiously I lifted my head and saw the gendarmes standing beside the hole filled with fire and Poles carrying the corpses and

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throwing them into it. Their work brought them nearer to me. I then crept into the lavatory and concealed myself behind a partition which formed the roof of the lavatory. Sitting there I heard firing near by and the shouts of Germans from the direction of the hole. At a certain moment another Pole who had escaped from below through the lavatory found himself beside me. He was doctor Jerzy Łakota,;who worked in the Child Jesus Hospital.

We sat up there for many hours. The whole time we heard the crackling of the burning corpses in the hole and of the fire itself. Besides, we heard series of shots coming from the other side (nearer to Zimna Street). Dr. Łakota told me that after a volley he had fallen along with the others. The gendarmes came over to see if he was still alive, and beat him brutally; but he pretended to be dead. I might add that when I fell after the volley, I saw a gendarme examining those lying on the ground; those who were still alive he shot with his revolver. I had succeeded in escaping before this. At about 2 o’clock in the night we descended and went out into the street through the already empty Hall, in which the fire was still burning, and succeeded in getting to Krochmalna Street.

Record No. 33/II:

On August 7, 1944, I was in the cellar of a house in Elektoralna Street in Warsaw. This day, at dusk, some German soldiers arrived on the premises and ordered all men to get out of the cellar, and to dismantle the barricades within two hours. I obeyed and went out of the cellar with about fifty other men. The soldiers took us under escort to Zelazna Brama Square, and then to the place near Mirowska Street which is opposite the small square between the two Market Halls. On the pavement of Mirowska Street there lay about 20 dead.

We were ordered to carry these corpses from the pavement

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of Mirowska Street to the little square between the Halls. With other men I carried the corpses and noticed while doing so that all of then were of more or less middle-aged men. After carrying these corpses we were ordered to remove the barricade which was across the tram line from Zelazna Brama Square to Zelazna Street. Having removed part of this barricade and thus enabled tanks to pass, we were brought in the direction of Zelazna Street, where we were halted, and ordered to put up our hands. We were asked several times if there were no Volks-or Reichsdeutsche among us . Next we were searched; everything of value, such as rings, watches and cigarettes, was taken from us. After being searched we were left standing on the same spot for about an hour and a half. Not far from us were groups of soldiers, in all about 200 men; our prayers for release were answered by the soldiers with laughter and derision. They spoke German, Russian land Ukrainian. One of them told us repeatedly that we should be killed at any moment. Then (we were standing in rows of three) the first three rows were driven into the Market Hall which is nearer to Zelazna Street. Shortly afterwards I heard a series of shots. Then followed the next three rows. I was in the second, or perhaps in the centre of the third. At the moment when we were directly in front of the entrance, one of the soldiers who was escorting us fired, and instantly my neighbour on the left fell to the ground before me, blocking my way; I stumbled and fell, but got up immediately and rejoined my companions. I did not notice what happened to the body over which I had stumbled. After rising, when I reached my companions, who were then entering the hall by the second inside gate, I saw a door leading to the right and immediately ran through it. I saw a hall, entered it, and noticed stairs leading upwards. It was already dark, but the darkness was lighted up by the reflection of the fires all round me. I thought my escape had been

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observed, as I heard a shout behind me, but no shots were fired. I ran to a gallery where some of the wooden structure was burning and there I stayed. During that time I heard separate shots from the interior of the hall. After some time, I looked down from the gallery into the Hall and saw a big round hole, about 6-7 metres (22 feet) across, in the floor of the Hall. In this hole a big fire was burning; its flames rose several metres above the level of the floor. I also noticed that the soldiers were leading a man to the edge of the hole. I saw this man making the sign of the Cross, and then I heard a shot, and saw him fall into the fire. I might add that this shot was fired in such a way that the soldier put his gun to the man’s neck and fired. Later I saw many such scenes. I noticed that when the shot was fired the man did not fall at once, but only after a few seconds. Having watched several murders of this kind I could not look any more, but heard many more shots and moans, which grew weaker and weaker, or even human howls. I supposed that they came from those who had fallen into the fire and were still alive. From the number of shots I took the impression that all those who had been brought with me from the cellar of No. 2, Elektoralna Street were shot. I stayed up in the gallery for some time longer (at least an hour), till the moment the shooting and voices stopped. Then, unnoticed, I ran through the Small Ghetto in the direction of Grzybowska Street, and afterwards came to Zlota Street, where I stayed for a month.

Crimes at Praga

Record No. 23111:

On Aug. 24, 1944, a gray-green car came to the corner of the Jewish Cemetery at Praga from the direction of Nowe

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Brodno, opposite Goledzinow. Four Gestapo men got out of it and began to dig a hole. The car drove away leaving behind two of the Gestapo-men. After 10 minutes it returned bringing our people, who were led to the recently dug grave and murdered by revolver shots through the back of the head. Among them were a very tall priest, a girl of about 12, a woman and a man dressed in black, who may have been a priest.

After they had been buried the car drove away, but in a short time returned with the same number of people as before: three men and one woman, who met the same fate. After they too had been buried in this grave the car drove away. This was at 1.30 p.m.

On Aug. 25 at the same hour the same car returned bringing four young men, who dug their own grave. Then they were ordered to lie in the hole, and in this position they were shot. This grave is about 400 metres (450 yards) from the first one.

On Aug. 26 - it was a Saturday - about 10 o’clock in the morning they again came and dug a larger number of graves and this time ordered passers-by to help. At 12 o’clock they drove off, returning at three with four men who had to dig graves. Then they went away, taking these men with them. There was no execution that day. On Sunday, Aug. 27, a big dark-red lorry brought 15 people; they were led out in groups of five. In the first group were three men and two women.

When they came to the graves I heard a cry and two men began to run away. One of them was killed on the spot; the other succeeded in running about 50 metres (55 yards) when a revolver-bullet struck him; they were both thrown into the hole. The rest of the people having heard their cries, did not want to get out of the car, but they were driven out by force and shot immediately at the gate. While one party.

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of Germans was burying the dead the other went away and brought about 13 more people, who met the same fate. There were among them old men, women and young boys. This day about 30 persons were shot.

Crimes in the centre of the city

Record No. 8/11:

At the moment of the outbreak of the Rising I was at No. 62, Marszalkowska Street. I tried to return home to No. 3, Staroscinska Street, and went from one shelter to another in different houses in the vicinity of the Redeemer Square (Plac Zbawiciela). This part of the city was then in Polish hands. On the evening of Aug. 4 I found myself together with my brother-in-law in the Parish House of the Church of the Redeemer, 37 Marszalkowska Street. On Aug. 5 some Gestapo-men entered the court-yard of this house: before the house (in the street) they set up a machine gun. They ordered all of us to leave. In the Parish House and in the cellars were about 50 people - priests, church staff, inhabitants of adjoining houses, and casual passers by. They were mostly elderly men and women. There were no Insurgents among us. We all went into the court-yard. The Germans drove us to the opposite side of Marszalkowska Street, where they separated the men from the women and ordered us all to lie down on the pavement; men first, but some of the women too. When we reached the spot, about 80 men and a large number of women were already on the ground. Fighting was in progress.

The Insurgents were firing from Mokotowiska Street and August 6 Street. After 10 minutes a WH soldier came to me with a revolver and ordered me in Polish to "come to work"; he

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said the same to my brother-in-law and to another young man who was lying near us. He ordered us to follow him in the direction of Litewska Street. Another Ukrainian soldier with his gun at the ready walked behind us. At the corner of Litewska Street they ordered us to cross Marszalkowska Street. Here under the wall of S. Anc’s chemist‘s shop I saw about a dozen corpses lying. They were all of men, and had machine- gun- shot wounds. The soldier told us to throw them into the cellar. We began to do so through a window in M,arszalkowska Street facing Oleander Street. When we had finished, we stopped, not knowing what to do next. Then the Ukrainian ordered me to push in a corpse, which had not quite fallen down into the cellar. When I approached the window I heard a shot behind me; I turned and saw our third companion fall on the ground, and the Ukrainian standing with his revolver pointed at my brother-in-law. I then jumped into the cellar, holding the corpse of the murdered man, and fell on a heap of corpses lying under the window.

I then heard many shots fired in the direction of the cellar and German and Ukrainian voices. I thought that they were shooting at me. I hid under the window among the corpses; there were about 30 of them. I lay there for several hours. At twilight I heard steps approaching under the window and the sound as of running water. Some drops fell on my head and I recognised the smell of petrol. After a moment I heard the hissing sound of fire; the heap of corpses among-which I was began to burn. I heard a Ukrainian say "Timov, I have started the fire".

Then I crept from the window to the centre of the cellar. By the light of the burning fire I saw under the window in the direction of Oleander Street a pile of burnt human bones, and ashes. I went into the adjoining smaller cellar. There, under the window which looked on to Marszalkowska Street, I saw about 20 corpses of men only. I then

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retreated to a cellar on one side of the court-yard. There, in the darkness, I saw a man, Władysław Tymitiski. He told me that the Germans had taken him from No 19, Marszalkowska Street, and had brought him to Anc’s shop from Oleander Street and there ordered him to jump on to the burning staircase. When he did so they had fired at him, but missed. This had happened one or two days before I found myself in the cellar of the chemist’s shop. We spent the night in one of the cellars. Next morning, Aug. 6, we met another man, Antoni Dudek, in the court-yard; he told us that a Ukrainian had fired at him in Oleander Street in front of the chemist’s shop. Dudek fell unconscious; after a while he felt the Ukrainian dragging him in the direction of the chemist’s shop. When he moved the Ukrainian threw him through the window into the burning cellar in Oleander Street. This was on August 2 or 3, 1934. [should be 1944]

We three went together to the sixth floor. All the flats, with the exception of two, were burnt out. From these two we collected food, and then hid ourselves on the sixth floor. There we met a fourth companion, Jan Latwinski. We stayed in this flat till Nov. 13, 1944. All this time we heard sounds of the fighting which was going on, and of various executions. Several times we heard voices of Poles shouting "long live Poland’, then separate gun shots followed. One day we heard steps on the stairs and German voices; after a while we saw fire coming out of a flat which had not yet been burnt. After the Capitulation the house in which we were was twice mined by the Germans . I saw mines being laid on the site of the chemist’s shop in Oleander Street; we then hid ourselves under the staircase. The explosion destroyed the ceilings of the lower floors of the house; but the upper floors remained intact. We left this house on Nov. 13, 1944, creeping through the city by night.

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Executions in the Opera-House

Record No. 19/II:

On Aug. 9, 1944, at ten o’clock in the morning, about twenty SS-men with revolvers rushed shouting into the courtyard ,of our house in Trebacka Street and ordered all the people in the flats and cellars to go out into the yard. Our street had been completely in German hands since the beginning of the Rising and there had been no military activity in it whatever. The inhabitants had stayed quietly in their flats or cellars. We came down men, women and children. In one of the flats a paralysed old woman of about 70 named Ropelewska was left behind. Several SS-men rushed into her flat after all the inhabitants had left and set fire to her mattress; seeing this her son carried her into the yard. When we were in the yard SS-men rushed into the flats and set them on fire one after the other. Then they took us into the, next yard, at No. 2, Marshall Foch Street. As Mrs. Ropelewska could not walk one of the armed SS-men shot her before our eyes.

At No. 2, Foch Street, the men were separated from the women. Then we went from one house to another (Nos 2, 4, 5, 7, Foch Str.). We were brought through cellars and court-yards into the Opera House; women and children into the cellars and men to the first floor. Among the men were my father, 69, and my husband, a student, 26 years old. What happened to the men I was told later by a schoolboy, Jerzy Szajkowski, who had escaped death. The men were led upstairs to the first floor of the Opera House, their Kennkarten were taken from them, and they were divided into groups: 1) Those who had been working in German institutions, 2) foreigners, 3) the remainder. Later this third group was brought out through the doors of the boxes and killed by shots through the back of the head The corpses

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fell on the stage. Thus my father and husband were murdered. The number of people killed then amounted to 500. The women, of whom there were several hundred, were divided into groups: 1) above. 60, 2) women with children, 3) the rest. I succeeded, with 30 other women, in escaping from the last group. We came to the church at Wola, from where we were taken to Pruszkow. I was recently in the ruins of the Opera House. The remains of the burnt corpses are still lying there. They were murdered on August 9. I saw bones, hair, teeth, and the remains of clothing, shoes and documents. I think some women were also shot there, because there were also remains of women’s dresses, and I fear that this was not the only execution there.
Last edited by Davey Boy on 13 Jul 2003 03:14, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Davey Boy » 13 Jul 2003 03:09

Oops, double post.

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Post by PolAntek » 14 Jul 2003 00:57

oleg wrote:
VeleV: And the sopposed army you mentioned of Poles in the East created by Polish government in Exile was NEVER part of the Red Army - it was a seperate unit under Polish NOT RUSSIAN command...
it was created and initailly supplied by USSR.


Oleg you are wrong. It was created by the Polish Govenment in Exile - the work of General Wladyslaw Sikorski. The Soviets made no meaningful effort to help the newly freed Poles in their struggle to congregate into Anders' future army. They basically told the overworked and starved Poles scattered throughout the vast Soviet expanse "you're free to go - now find your own way". Countless Poles did not survive the journey due to hunger, illness, and lack of provisions and assistance from their Soviet hosts.

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Post by PolAntek » 14 Jul 2003 01:11

VeleV wrote:Read some books written by REGULAR Poles - Russians were way more feared because they were brutal and the stuff you are describing by the Germans seriously makes me laugh - my grandfather owned a famous bar in downtown Warsaw and said the Germans were some of the nicest soldiers he had the pleasure of meeting and the stories you tell are nothing but lies.


VeleV, quit while you're ahead. Suggesting that Davey Boy is telling "nothing but lies" throws serious question to your knowledge of this time period.

Like Davey Boy said, the only inhabitants of wartime Poland that spoke favorably of the German and Russian occupiers were those contemptible individuals called collaborators.

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Post by Benoit Douville » 14 Jul 2003 01:42

Getting back to the original question, I don't think either that the Polish soldiers who joined the Red Army were traitors. Like you mentionned David, For the one who got deported to Siberia, it was a chance to comeback to Poland. They were trying to saved their owns lives and we can't blame them for that. The one who escaped in the West during the German invasion who fought in the Battle of England, Monte Cassino and Arnhem are more considered heroes I can imagine in Poland.

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Post by mars » 14 Jul 2003 03:04

Most soldiers of these Polish were joined after Red Army enter the Poland, and most of them were volunteered.

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Post by VeleV » 14 Jul 2003 04:17

Well Davey then I guess my family are the traitors right?
the whole damn family! :lol:
My granny was also a huge traitor for feeding those Germans and giving them soap - I guess so since she always told me "Better Dead Then Red"

And perhaps my family did have it easier - my Grandfather in Warsaw is a German but one of his sons was murdered in the Warsaw uprising but sadly for you not by a German but a Russian - weep weep.

So far I heard no bad German stories towards Poles except outside of Warsaw - Warsaw was fully alive until the Ghetto rising.
People lived, people went to see movies, people WORKED!

I have met many Poles which say this same story...I think your reading the wrong books written by the wrong people...perhaps you also believe in the Jedwabne incident?! :lol:

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Post by VeleV » 14 Jul 2003 05:20

Great also 'true' right? info about our real army?
You must be a supporter of this info aren't you?!
http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/pages/t002/t00215.html

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Post by PanzerKing » 14 Jul 2003 05:23

VeleV wrote:So far I heard no bad German stories towards Poles except outside of Warsaw - Warsaw was fully alive until the Ghetto rising.
People lived, people went to see movies, people WORKED!


My god are you even Polish? What is your definition of "alive"? Perhaps the creation of the ghetto was the best thing to happen to Warsaw since sliced bread?

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Post by VeleV » 14 Jul 2003 05:35

Man you forget that the ghettos did not have Polish people in them!
The city was fully alive - read a book about life in Warsaw!
The ghettos were secluded - and a huge bridge was built so that the normal civilians didnt have to come in touch with the jews.

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Post by PanzerKing » 14 Jul 2003 05:43

Yeah you are right. I wrote without thinking first.

Sorry

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Post by VeleV » 14 Jul 2003 05:50

Sure Poland was under occupation and when a German soldier got killed they killed Poles for it but people in Warsaw lived normally!
They did not fear when walking the streets, they had jobs, went to stores, went for coffee, celebrated Christmass normally - ofcourse there were RESTRICTIONS....German districts, Street cars had special GERMAN ONLY seating, Police Hour came in so you couldnt be out past 9 (not all the time!!)

But to say that if you lived a good life you had to be a 'cooliberator' is simply lying!

The Pope worked in a chemical factory during the war was he also a traitor because he made money?

Poles did not fear Germans - Poles feared Russians.

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