Were Polish Red Army soldiers traitors?

Discussions on all aspects of Poland during the Second Polish Republic and the Second World War. Hosted by Peter K
VeleV
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Post by VeleV » 15 Jul 2003 03:31

It's so shameful to see yourself as this huge victim - maybe you will demand money from Germans for harm done?
but ofcourse you will forget the Russians right?

And using my granma as a source is more valid then using books written by people who were not in the war - she was - where you?

Davey Boy
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Post by Davey Boy » 15 Jul 2003 05:23

VeleV wrote:It's so shameful to see yourself as this huge victim - maybe you will demand money from Germans for harm done?
but ofcourse you will forget the Russians right?

And using my granma as a source is more valid then using books written by people who were not in the war - she was - where you?



Hey, I'm no victim. But Poland was raped by bothe the Germans and Russians - albeit in different ways.

Where do you think my family was hiding during the war?

You think your grandma suffered under the Russians. Ha! Half my family was hunting bears near Lake Baikal thanks to uncle Joe. What do you call that, a vacation?

But I don't see why anyone should deny what the Germans did in Poland.

They murdered our best and brightest and killed more than 2000,000 Poles overall.

These are not commie lies, these are facts supported by hard evidence.

You think the Germans were nice because people lived "normal" lives in Warsaw for a little while?

You think that was gonna go on for long? Did it go on for long?

Do you have any idea of German plans for Poland? Obviously not.

If you have anything of substance, then I'd like to see it. Where is it?

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Musashi
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Post by Musashi » 15 Jul 2003 09:19

Davey Boy wrote:But I don't see why anyone should deny what the Germans did in Poland.

They murdered our best and brightest and killed more than 2000,000 Poles overall.

Not counting the Polish Jews.

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Marcus
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Post by Marcus » 15 Jul 2003 18:14

Let's keep the discussions in English.

/Marcus

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Musashi
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Post by Musashi » 15 Jul 2003 21:35

@Marcus
OK
@_KaaN_
My Turkish friend,
I have nothing against Turks and Turkish, so don't comment my messages in such uncultural way. You can write in Turkish and I have nothing against it. Don't you think its rather impolite to comment a post which is not adressed to you and which doesn't concern you? I swear by Allah and Koran there was nothing insulting in my Polish text. Is it enough for you? No? So check it using Polish-English online translator. It was a very diplomatic post like many of them written by me.
Best regards,
Musashi

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PolAntek
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Post by PolAntek » 16 Jul 2003 01:50

First – to get everyone off the edge of their seat about what the cryptic Polish conversataion between Davey Boy and Musashi was about (seeing as they won’t ‘fess up): Very innocuous indeed– essentially they are expressing puzzlement over VeleV’s bizarre position on German / Polish relations during the occupation years– that’s all. Nothing demeaning at all.

I myself am a bit puzzled. VeleV, one cannot base his opinion on the ‘limited’ experiences of a few family members. Please understand that I wish not to belittle them or what they went through. But no one in their right mind can, after even a cursory study of the eye witness accounts of this period, come to the conclusion that Polish German relations were amiable. Yes – I agree that the degree of terror varied depending on where one found themselves - inside or outside Hans Frank’s Generalgouvernement . But overall, virtually the entire population suffered at one time or another – especially as the war dragged on. And in so many accounts that I have read the extent of tragedy and suffering by so many blameless innocent individuals is just staggering. I shudder to think of what I would have done had I faced even a fraction of what so many countless souls endured.

My father was deported to Germany for slave labour in 1941. I respect his accounts of some truly terrible experiences – and then place them in the within the context of the bigger picture. For the record, he also speaks of some kindhearted Germans who were instrumental in my fathers survival of his ordeal (and hence my existence!). Sadly, however, these brave Germans who opposed the prevailing attitudes of the time were very much in the minority.

It seems to me that you are trying to reconcile your Polish / German heritage by whitewashing the overall terrible German treatment of Poles in the occupied territories. As noted above, not all Germans are bad – but that’s not the issue here. This issue is 'What does the verifiable historical record state'. Be proud of your heritage. There’s an old saying that if you shake a Polish family tree a Jew is sure to fall out. I’m sure that you could say that in many cases Germans will also fall out as well, and vice versa. No one can say for certain that theyare a pure Pole, German, or whatever. Please check out the site Davey Boy suggested. There are many other sites, as well as books, films, etc. If you understand Polish then you’ve got and even greater resource pool at your disposal If you study these many resources objectively you will surely find that what Davey Boy and others state is in accordance with the vast majority of eyewitness accounts, history books, etc.. Good luck.
Last edited by PolAntek on 16 Jul 2003 04:05, edited 1 time in total.

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David C. Clarke
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Post by David C. Clarke » 16 Jul 2003 02:52

That was a fine post PolAntek. A reasonable and non-confrontational post. Thanks.

Best Regards, David

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PolAntek
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Post by PolAntek » 16 Jul 2003 04:13

You are very welcome David.

Happy to contribute my hastily assembled 'two bits' to help end the jousting.

Cheers,

Antoni

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Benoit Douville
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Post by Benoit Douville » 17 Jul 2003 03:29

I agree, a wonderful post by PolAntek. I also think that the Soviet policy against Poland was terrible because they deported 1.2 Millions to the Gulag but the German plan was evil too. Hans Frank who was the Governor of Krakow quote:

"From now on the political role of the Polish Nation is ended. It is our aim that the vet concept of polak be erased for centuries to come. Neither the Republic, nor any other form of Polish state will ever be reborn. Poland will be treated as a colony and Poles will become slaves in the German empire".

Poland and Poles are still there :D

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Oleg Grigoryev
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Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 17 Jul 2003 06:32

Benoit Douville wrote:I agree, a wonderful post by PolAntek. I also think that the Soviet policy against Poland was terrible because they deported 1.2 Millions to the Gulag but the German plan was evil too. Hans Frank who was the Governor of Krakow quote:

"From now on the political role of the Polish Nation is ended. It is our aim that the vet concept of polak be erased for centuries to come. Neither the Republic, nor any other form of Polish state will ever be reborn. Poland will be treated as a colony and Poles will become slaves in the German empire".

Poland and Poles are still there :D
betwen 670-720 thosands not 1.2 millions.

P.S my native town was one of the main points for the Poles - it is located roaugly 200 km south of Moscow - I did not know it was Siberia.

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Post by Davey Boy » 17 Jul 2003 07:54

oleg wrote:
Benoit Douville wrote:I agree, a wonderful post by PolAntek. I also think that the Soviet policy against Poland was terrible because they deported 1.2 Millions to the Gulag but the German plan was evil too. Hans Frank who was the Governor of Krakow quote:

"From now on the political role of the Polish Nation is ended. It is our aim that the vet concept of polak be erased for centuries to come. Neither the Republic, nor any other form of Polish state will ever be reborn. Poland will be treated as a colony and Poles will become slaves in the German empire".

Poland and Poles are still there :D
betwen 670-720 thosands not 1.2 millions.

P.S my native town was one of the main points for the Poles - it is located roaugly 200 km south of Moscow - I did not know it was Siberia.



Many Poles were also sent to Kazakhstan, where their descendants still live today.

I think we'll never know the real number of Poles who were lost to the Soviet Union.

There was the first wave, which my family was part of. Most of them came back or slipped over to the west. But then there was the second wave in 1945.

So who came back, who emigrated to the west, who died, and who stayed behind? It's hard to know for sure.

Kaan Caglar
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Post by Kaan Caglar » 17 Jul 2003 15:10

Musashi wrote:@Marcus
OK
@_KaaN_
My Turkish friend,
I have nothing against Turks and Turkish, so don't comment my messages in such uncultural way. You can write in Turkish and I have nothing against it. Don't you think its rather impolite to comment a post which is not adressed to you and which doesn't concern you? I swear by Allah and Koran there was nothing insulting in my Polish text. Is it enough for you? No? So check it using Polish-English online translator. It was a very diplomatic post like many of them written by me.
Best regards,
Musashi


My Polish friend,
I have nothing against Poles and Polish either,so don't comment my messages in such uncultural way :) My point was; when you two start talking polish, we can't take part in the discussion,so the thread cannot advance anymore...
No offense to you or davey,
(By the way i'm not religious and it is written Kur'an :) )
Best Regards
Kaan

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Benoit Douville
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Post by Benoit Douville » 18 Jul 2003 01:25

The number estimated today about the forgotten tragedy is more than 1.2 millions, it's about 1.7 million Polish citizens of various faiths and ethnicities (Polish, Ukrainian, Belorussian, Catholic, Orthodox, Jewish) deported from Eastern Poland (Kresy) in 1940-42 to special labour camps in Siberia, Kazakhstan and Soviet Asia.

Oleg,

Have you seen the film A Forgotten Odyssey? It is a great documentary about that tragedy:

http://aforgottenodyssey.com/film.html

Regards

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Oleg Grigoryev
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Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 18 Jul 2003 01:51

Benoit Douville wrote:The number estimated today about the forgotten tragedy is more than 1.2 millions, it's about 1.7 million Polish citizens of various faiths and ethnicities (Polish, Ukrainian, Belorussian, Catholic, Orthodox, Jewish) deported from Eastern Poland (Kresy) in 1940-42 to special labour camps in Siberia, Kazakhstan and Soviet Asia.

Oleg,

Have you seen the film A Forgotten Odyssey? It is a great documentary about that tragedy:

http://aforgottenodyssey.com/film.html

Regards
I've seen population camps reports how is that for a source?Because, you see, when they resettled someone, or whatever, thy have to count them, and then as they move them along they have to count them again and again on each intimidate station, and then finally when they arrived they have to count them again every damn day. So this is how I know. That is why my margin of error is 50 thousands while yours is 10 times this number.

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PolAntek
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Post by PolAntek » 18 Jul 2003 05:01

oleg wrote: P.S my native town was one of the main points for the Poles - it is located roaugly 200 km south of Moscow - I did not know it was Siberia.


So what? With a gun pointed to my head by some Soviet thugs and 15 minutes to pack up a restricted amount of belongings before being sent away never to see my home again - Oleg, it is irrelevant where the deportation of these innocent thousands were to - whether just across town or right across the continent.

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