Polish SPAA of the September campaign

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olek_z17
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Location: Poland

Polish SPAA of the September campaign

Post by olek_z17 » 08 Sep 2022 18:15

Hello, I'd like to ask you about Polish SPAA vehicles from the September campaign. Specifically about those with low caliber guns. I know that Poland never adopted such a vehicle formally, but I also know that there were some improvised ones. I have two photos of such vehicles:
SPA 25C Polonia with a Hotchkiss wz.14:
Image
wz.34 half track with Hotchkiss wz.14 and Browning wz.30:
Image
So, I'd like to ask you if you have photos of any of Polish SPAAs like those two above?
Also, while we're at it, does anyone have an idea what are Eugene Systems' sources on those two vehicles (especially the second one with Hotchkiss machine guns)?:
Fiat 621 Browning:
Image
Fiat 621 Hotchkiss:
Image

gebhk
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Re: Polish SPAA of the September campaign

Post by gebhk » 09 Sep 2022 12:03

Hi Olek

It's not at all true that no SP small-calibre AA weapon was adopted. The Polski Fiat 508/518 MG carrier was precisely such a weapon. The majority of these cars served with light AA batteries, with one vehicle allocated to each platoon which in practice means to every 40mm Bofors gun. Its role was to provide defence against very low flying aircraft and, secondarily, against ground attack. It seems likely that several were also employed by the motorised cavalry brigades as HQ protection vehicles, where again, their dual potential was useful. I have not come across the oficial name of this vehicle and this complicates searches. It is one of a range of vehicle types built on the PZInz 302 chassis and, confusingly, the whole vehicle is often and incorrectly called samochod (or ciagnik) PZInz 302. The car itself was officially called Polski Fiat 508/518, in this case probably something like "Samochod Polski Fiat 508/518 pod ckm na podwoziu PZInz 302". To confuse matters further, the vehicle also often rejoiced and rejoices in the colloquial term 'taczanka motorowa'. Yet another element of the confusion is that there are several well-known photographs of a very early prototype which differed very significantly from the production version.

A search using the terms Polski Fiat 508/501 (or 508/18) ckm or PZInz 302 ckm should yield a fair number of photographs and there is a section of Pathe film showing several of these vehicles. Given your location, I presume you speak Polish and, if so, I would recommend the relevant Wielki Leksykon Uzbrojenia monographs: vol 110 and special edition Vol 3/2018 (Polski Fiat 508/518/302T i wyposazenie).

Your first photograph is some sort of experimental contraption that, I am virtually certain, never made it as a standard weapon. The second, while clearly involving folk messing around for the benefit of the photographer, shows a standard arm-and-socket arrangement in the left lower corner of the picture. All medium machine guns had a set of accessories to convert their tripod into an AA mount. Similarly, every platoon in the infantry and cavalry had a tripod to convert one of its BARs to an improvised AA weapon. These tripods however were designed to operate from the gound and were virtually useless aboard, say, a truck. For this reason trucks, cars and even horse-drawn vehicles were frequently equipped with a socket that took the standard AA mast for machine guns, thus providing a reasonably stable platform for the weapon. To be clear, this did not make the truck or other vehicle a self propelled AA weapon. It was simply, much as the AA fiiting on the turret of a tank, a means of providing limited self-defence if a unit equipped with machine guns was surprised by enemy aircraft, say on the march.

olek_z17
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Posts: 2
Joined: 05 Sep 2022 20:47
Location: Poland

Re: Polish SPAA of the September campaign

Post by olek_z17 » 10 Sep 2022 11:30

Thanks for replying.
As for the Polski Fiat 508/518 with the machine gun, I was aware of this vehicle, but since it has a tripod instead of an AA mast, I thought it was strictly an anti-infantry vehicle, so thanks for correcting me here.

I have also seen one interesting vehicle of this type: Sokół 1000 with an "anti-air sidecar", however I don't know if it went any further than prototype stage:
Image

Btw, what about those two trucks from Steel Division II? Are they completely made up or are there any sources for mentioning such vehicles?

gebhk
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Joined: 25 Feb 2013 20:23

Re: Polish SPAA of the September campaign

Post by gebhk » 10 Sep 2022 21:48

Im afraid the above is a strightforward mcl of a machine gun section (there were two more in the section that carried the rest of the crew and ammunition). The machine gun is a straight-up ground-firing machine gun which would only be fired from the mcl in the direst of circumstances regardless of the targert (I suspect the photo is of some parade or demo designed to impress the public. It would have been virtually impossible to aim the damned thing like that). However the photo does give a nice view of the AA accessories of the standard ckm wz 30 - the mast for raising the weapon in the tripod, the AA sights and the stock extension. Not sure how many mcl were thus converted - quite posiibly onloy one set. At the time the war broke out they were not on any mobilisation tables AFAIK and the vehicles were grossly overloaded, so whether they would have been in the future is at least debatable.

The Steel Divion stuff is likely completely fictional, albeit it is difficult to discern anything from the small thumbproints. While technically not impossible, I am not aware of any such get-up done in reality and, if it was, it would have been an entirely extemporised effort.

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