Polish defense during the German/Russian invasion ?

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Ogorek
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#16

Post by Ogorek » 14 Oct 2003, 18:19

The 1941 German film in question is Kampfgeschwader Lützow - it depicts Polish cavalry wearing model 1934 helmets and their sabers slung on the RIGHT side.

The 18th Pomorski Lancers did not use grenade bundles in their encounter with German armor on September 1.

I had seen LOTNA some forty years ago here in the states. Polish cavalry veterans who I had known in the past hated the depiction of cavalry charging tanks.... but as I remember it (it has been a long time) the cavalry had no choice but by getting through German tanks to escape encirclement... One troop hit the gun barrel of a tank with the flat of his saber.... and even at the young age that I saw the film, it struck me as a symbol of a warrior... similar to an American Plains Indian touching an enemy with a “coup stick”

I would love to see LOTNA again, I remember it as beautifully filmed, of soldiers caught in a disaster, all envious of a white beautiful horse, and who ever rode was soon killed.

As to Wajda, everybody in Poland had to suffer from the [party line, and he was triumphant master at doing so.... remember, he tuned a piece of Communist rubbish into one of the greatest films praising the Polish spirit - ASHES AND DIAMONDS.

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PolAntek
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#17

Post by PolAntek » 15 Oct 2003, 02:09

Mostowka wrote:PolAntek:

Very interesting post. Where is the letter from ? As always I am stunnded by how passivly the French and Brittish acted during the september campaign. I never seem to end my thoughts regarding the "what if..", well well. Pre-War Poland stays in our dreams, :-).

Why was the east border so thinly manned ? I understand that they had to pull up most troops to the German border as it was obviously a larger threat but was not Slovakia and Russia an equal threat at least in the eyes of the Polish high comman ?
Mostowka:

I found the letter some time ago while scanning the internet for information on the September Campaign. It was contained in the reply on some discussion forum. I thought it was well worth keeping so I saved a copy for future reference.

As for your question about the minimal Polish defense of her eastern borders at time of the Soviet attack - a brief reply in the interest of brevity (much more could be wrtitten): The eastern borders were guarded by the Border Defense Corps (KOP) consisting of about 18 battalions and 12000 troops. The KOP was made up of little more than light infantry with minimal artillery support. This limited Polish defense was stripped even further with manpower ordered westward as reinforcement against the German onslaught from the east, south and north.

Although the attack of September 17th did take the Poles by surprise, most definitely there was strong suspicion in the Polish high command about the ramifications of the Molotov-Ribbentrop non-aggression pact with respect to Soviet intent. And regardless of the pact, the Poles were always wary of their eastern neighbours. However, the diplomatic situation of the time quite understandably directed Polish attention - and the bulk of their forces - to the immediate German threat in the west. And even then, as noted in my previous post, the Poles were held back from full mobilization by their “allies” so as not to provoke an angry reaction from Hitler – believe it or not!

Best regards,

Antoni


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Steve
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#18

Post by Steve » 17 Oct 2003, 00:40

That the British and French could have launched an offensive in the West in September is a myth just the same as Polish cavalry charging tanks. The British had no forces in France to launch an offensive in September and the French mobilisation timetable meant an offensive before the 17th was not possible and after the 17th pointless. The Polish high command had held talks with the French and knew of the time it would take the French to mobilise and though they had been told the French would start an offensive two weeks after the declaration of war some senior Polish officers doubted this could occur in two weeks. The French had also warned the Poles that their dispositions were unsound.

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Benoit Douville
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#19

Post by Benoit Douville » 19 Oct 2003, 02:45

The Battle of Bzura was the major Battle during the Polish Campaign and maybe it will interested you all on this great Polish thread.

On 7 and 8 September 1939 armies Poznan and Pomorze retreating from Posnania and Pomerania concentrated in the triangle Leczyca - Wloclawek - Plock. According to the orders of the Supreme Command they were heading for Warsaw. Meanwhile the ring of the enemy siege was tightening more and more around Poland's Capital. Divisions from the German 8th and 10th Armies were moving along the routes parallel to the Polish retreat.

The forces designated for the counter-attack comprised almost all the troops from the Army Poznan, the direct command of those troops was entrusted to General Edmund Kownacki-Knoll. Knoll's operation group comprised three infantry divisions and cavalry operating on their flanks. They had to overcome the enemy troops in front of them and attack along the axis Krosniewice - Brzeziny (near Lodz). The 25th Infantry Division of Gen. Franciszek Alter had to take Leczyca and pursuit the enemy as far as to Ozorkow. The 17th Infantry Division of Col. Mieczysław Mozdyniewicz had to advance on Celestynow, and the 14th Infantry Division of Col. Franciszek Wład had to take the suburb Balkow-Goslub and secure the approaches of Rogozno. From the west the advance had to be covered by the Cavalry Operation Group of Gen. Stanisław Skotnicki-Grzmot, which had to advance on Poddebice; on the eastern flank, in the vicinity of Glowno, had to operate the Wielkopolska Cavalry Brigade of Gen. Roman Abraham. In the reserve near Lowicz General Kutrzeba kept divisions of Gen. Mikołaj Bołtuc's operation group from the Army Pomorze.

The counter-strike commenced on 9 September and instantly drove German 30th and 24th Infantry Divisions away from the Bzura. Polish troops inflicted heavy losses on the Germans and took Leczyca, Piatek, Sobota, Bielawy and Lowicz, and pursued the enemy as far as to Strykow near Lodz. The enemy counter-attacks on Leczyca and Piatek on 10 September, as well as Lowicz on 12 September, were repelled in bloody fights. However, the Polish counter-strike achieved only tactical objectives. On 12 September General Kutrzeba decided to terminate the advance and return the Knoll's group on its initial positions. There started its regrouping for the strike on Sochaczew to open the road to the besieged Warsaw. To cover the strike on Sochaczew the divisions from the Army Pomorze were introduced into fights near Lowicz. Under the command of General Władysław Bortnowski they had to strike against Skierniewice, and from there move towards Warsaw.

Meanwhile the Germans command had been hastily bringing reinforcements to the sector of Bzura. By 16 September the Army Group South had brought from the areas south of Pilica and introduced in fights several light, motorized and armoured divisions. At that time the Army Pomorze was already engaged at Lowicz. General Bortnowski personally commanded the advance on Skierniewice. Three divisions: 26th Infantry, 16th Infantry and 4th Infantry from the Bołtuc's group attacked the enemy on 14 September at 8:00. The 16th Infantry Division was attacking the enemy positions in the east of Lowicz. But for the reasons, which still remain unknown, General Bortnowski ordered to cease the attack, abandon Lowicz and assume defence positions on the northern bank of Bzura. Now the division had to attack the town once again. Bloody street fights flared up in Lowicz; the Germans counter-attacked as soon as they received reinforcements. The Polish attack once again had to be ceased.

The Polish command was already bringing in the forces of the Wielkopolska and Podolska Cavalry Brigades. This operation was covered in the south by Bołtuć's troops fighting near Lowicz, and in the rears by the troops of Generals Grzmot and Michał Tokarzewski-Karaszewicz. But the enemy was faster. On 16 September in the morning two armoured divisions, the 1st and the 4th, crossed Bzura in the north and south of Sochaczew and attacked Polish positions.

The unequal battle of infantry and cavalry against tanks had started. Polish troops, amassed in a relatively small area and deprived of the anti-air defence, became an easy target for the German air forces. In the evening 16 September at the Army Poznan headquarters at Zaluskow it was decided to terminate the battle and undertake a fast withdrawal to Warsaw.

Regards

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Mostowka
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#20

Post by Mostowka » 19 Oct 2003, 12:17

Great post Benoit Douvill, very informative.

Does anyone have any good litterature on this topic or on the Polish pre-war military in general ?

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Orok
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#21

Post by Orok » 29 Oct 2003, 23:21

An interesting side note for the discussion of alleged Polish cavalry charge on German tanks:
EURO MILITAIRE 2003

Best of Show awarded to military vehicle diorama

‘End of an Era’ – by Douglas Lee – a diorama in Class 15 Military Vehicle Dioramas showing Polish cavalry on horseback attacking a German armoured column during the invasion of Poland took the Best of Show medal at Euro Militaire.
http://www.militarymodelling.com/pages/news.cgi
Attachments
Polishcharge.jpg
Polishcharge.jpg (33.32 KiB) Viewed 946 times

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Ogorek
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#22

Post by Ogorek » 30 Oct 2003, 00:28

outstanding, splendid modelling = A+

Historic accuracy = Zilch !

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