Did Polish Calvary charge German Panzers with lances?

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STALAGl3
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Panzers and Polish Lancers

#1

Post by STALAGl3 » 03 Feb 2003, 00:05

Did Polish Calvary actually charge German Panzers with lances in 1939?
I've heard many disputes on this topic. Does anyone have photos or proof that this event actually occured?

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Christian Ankerstjerne
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#2

Post by Christian Ankerstjerne » 03 Feb 2003, 01:06

The polish cavalry never charged the Panzers. The Polish forces had tanks, and knew what they were.

There were one incident, though, where a Panzer unit suprised a cavalry detachement. As a German journalist later visited the place, ha made his own conjunctures about what happened...

Christian


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Daniel L
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#3

Post by Daniel L » 03 Feb 2003, 01:16

Actually it was the other way around, the Poles surprised the resting crewmen. Further, the journalist was an Italian correspondent.

Best regards/ Daniel

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Erik E
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#4

Post by Erik E » 03 Feb 2003, 01:17

There were one incident, though, where a Panzer unit suprised a cavalry detachement
I have also heard this. They got surrounded and had to go straight trough the line of attacking tanks in order to escape.... Maybe the Germans thought they actually attacked them, but I guess it was just propaganda.

Erik

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#5

Post by Karl da Kraut » 03 Feb 2003, 03:30

Well...

Unfortunately I can't remember the date of this incident. But here's what happened.

A Polish cavalry unit attacked a German infantry, piercing the German lines and pursuing the fleeing "Landsers". While continuing their charge, the Polish horsemen ran into an advancing column of German tanks. The Polish commander ordered his men to continue forward since turning the horses at high speed would have taken too much time and the Poles escaped through the German line, naturally suffering massive losses. If they had tried to turn, however, they would have been exposed to hostile fire for a longer period of time and their losses would probably have been even more devastating. The German tank crews being no experts on cavalry warfare believed the Polish horsemen had actually attacked them.

Both sides instrumentalized this incident for their propaganda. The Germans in order to show the military inferiority and simple-minded nature of the Poles, the Poles themselves to emphasize their extraordinary bravery against an enemy who was superior only in the ttechnical aspect.

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_The_General_
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Did Polish cavalry attack German tanks?

#6

Post by _The_General_ » 22 Apr 2004, 13:59

Does anyone know more about this?
Last edited by Marcus on 10 Jan 2015, 13:14, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Title changed from "Polisch kavallerie attacking tanks?"

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Daniel L
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#7

Post by Daniel L » 22 Apr 2004, 14:23

Myth.

Best regards/ Daniel

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sylvieK4
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#8

Post by sylvieK4 » 22 Apr 2004, 14:35

Agreed. It's a myth. Below is a link to an interesting web discussion on this topic.

http://web.archive.org/web/200110060212 ... ml/cav.htm

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sylvieK4
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#9

Post by sylvieK4 » 22 Apr 2004, 14:46

Perpetuating the cavalry charge myth, a drawing from the cover of the youth magazine "Der Pimpf" from October 1939:

From: http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/pimpf.htm
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Christoph Awender
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#10

Post by Christoph Awender » 22 Apr 2004, 15:23

Well I don´t judge true or not but how does someone explain the reports in official german unit diaries Example: 3.Pz.Div.

\Christoph

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Daniel L
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#11

Post by Daniel L » 22 Apr 2004, 16:04

What does it say? Can you give us a quote?

Best regards/ Daniel

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Alter Mann
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Cavalry vs. Tanks

#12

Post by Alter Mann » 22 Apr 2004, 16:23

I read an account some time ago of one incident where Polish Cavalry attacked a German armored column. It even mentioned the names of the units and the officers on the Polish side. From what I read the attack met with limited success against the infantry at first, partly due to surprise, but, once the tanks got into action they caused a large number of casualties and the cavalry unit was forced to break off the engagement. I believe that the officer who led the initial charge was killed.

Then again, I've also read that this never happened and I can't find the source right now. The account sounds authentic because of the details, but it's just like anything else written about the war, and I wouldn't trust it without corroboration.

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sylvieK4
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#13

Post by sylvieK4 » 22 Apr 2004, 17:01

What does it say? Can you give us a quote?
I'd be interested to see that, too.

Could it be that the cavalry units in question aimed their attack at infantry, but were not aware of the presence of the tanks until after the primary engagement had begun (rather than horsemen deliberately charging armor)?

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_The_General_
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#14

Post by _The_General_ » 22 Apr 2004, 17:23

Just found this:
German propaganda: Most known is the cavalry 'charge' on 1.September 1939 in the area of the 'passage' between Pommern and Danzig. What really happenend was that two squadrons of the 18th Polish Lancer Regiment, under instruction of Colonel Kazimierz Mastelarz tried to surprise a German infantry unit (belonging to German 20th Motorised Infantry Division). By late afternoon, with a company of tankettes of the 81st Armoured Troop the 18th Lancers were holding the most northern Polish positions near Chojnice while the remainder of the Pomorska Cavalry Brigade fell back southward. The Regimental Colonel Kazimierz Mastelarz had already sought permission to fall back across the Bzura River, which was in his rear to a more easily defendable and less risky position. Permission had been refused. By late afternoon Mastelarz decided he had no choice but to take some sort of active initiative on his own. Abandoning the broken down tankettes he mounted half his men giving him a force of less than two normal line squadrons. He aimed to outflank German infantry positions and take them from the rear. At about 7 P.M. the Poles came across German infantry in a forest clearing. Determined upon a surprise attack Mastelarz swept into the clearing with a mounted sabre charge that annihilated the German units. The Poles chased the German infantrymen in the gallopp, when a German armoured car unit (and possibly Panzer I), which had arrived on the scene. The German vehicles emerged around the corner (left hand side of the area being charged were some woods which took a left hand curve). Colonel Mastelarz then had two possibilities: stop the attack and turn and make flight - and being shot to pieces by the automatic cannons of the German vehicles (or tank machine guns)before getting out of shooting distance. Or head straight for the tanks and disappear between them (and thus put the Germans at risk, mutually to shoot themselves) and finallly into forest area. Mastelarz decided for the second possibility. Bystanders could take this as a cavalry charge. In truth it was a desperate, but ingenious escape attempt. The Germans were so surprised of the sight of the 'charging' cavalry that they hardly fired. Colonel Mastelarz actually succeeded in saving his units. 20 men were lost. On the next day Italian reporters visited the place of the happening, where German officers told them, on the basis the dead cavallerists, of the 'antiquated and helpless' charge. A myth was born. This report was then taken up and cannibalized by the German propaganda machinery, in order to support the alleged 'inferiority of the slawic race' (tenor: 'only mentally inferior races are so thick as a brick to attack tanks with sword and lance'). Also wanting to demonstrate a Polish military recklessness and foolishness. Far from the truth.

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sylvieK4
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#15

Post by sylvieK4 » 22 Apr 2004, 17:29

A few more links. These support Alte Mann's post:

From, http://www.panzerworld.net/polishcav.html , this first article relies on information from Zaloga's book, Poland 1939: The Birth of Blitzkrieg
What actually happened was that a group of Polish cavalry had been surprised by German armoured forces, and had no other choice but to get away fast. Thus, they mounted, and tried to ride away, but naturally with heavy casualties.

http://www.chakoten.dk/polryt07.html
At 5 p.m. on September 1, 1939 the myth was born when the Polish 18th Lancers of the Pomorska Cavalry Brigade charged units from the German 20th Motorised Division. This incident took place near Chojnice in the Western part of Poland. The attack was meant to be on infantry units marching eastwards, but the Poles were surprised by German tanks and armoured cars which appeared out of nowhere. It was a massacre!
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From: http://www.apacouncil.org/ww2/2dp.html
The widespread notion that the Polish cavalry engaged in foolhardy attempts to charge German tanks in September 1939 is misleading. There were few isolated cases where Polish cavalrymen tried to break out between the tanks rather than surrender; but, as a rule, cavalrymen dismounted and operated like infantry before each engagement. Horses were used for transportation and were kept behind battle lines during an engagement. Each cavalry regiment was equipped with its own anti-tank and anti-aircraft artillery. Polish cavalry and infantry units were weaker in fire power and mobility than German panzer units, but their morale and determination helped enormously.
Also of interest is an article by Kamil Dziewanowski. Although it does not discuss a cavalry charge against tanks, it is a first person account of a Polish cavalryman who fought during the 1939 campaign. According to the article, Dziewanowski's unit was wary of German armor and had look outs and an anti-tank squadron on standby before the charge the author took part in:

http://www.polishnews.com/fulltext/hist ... ory4.shtml

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