Did Polish Calvary charge German Panzers with lances?

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Fubbik
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Post by Fubbik » 05 Oct 2004 17:31

I believe taczanek was the same as the Russian tatjanka, a horse-drawn wagon with a machine-gun-

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Musashi
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Post by Musashi » 05 Oct 2004 23:00

Fubbik wrote:I believe taczanek was the same as the Russian tatjanka, a horse-drawn wagon with a machine-gun-

Taczanka, taczanek is genitive in plural.
Yes, you are right. It was exactly the same (a wagon with a heavy machine gun) and sometimes it was also a wagon with a mortar. Even the pronounciation is the same like in Russian.

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Bjørn from Norway
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Post by Bjørn from Norway » 05 Oct 2004 23:11

Hello!
This is from the Divisional Story of 20th Infantry Division(mot.), translated fm German by me:

4th September 1939:

"The Polish Cavalry Brigade "Pomorska" had by mistake attacked our tanks with sabres in a Ulan attack, and suffered great losses. A Polish artillery regiment was caught on its way to the Weichsel, and destroyed by our armour".

It does not say what armour unit.

B

KOP1939
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Post by KOP1939 » 06 Oct 2004 04:21

When was that book originally published?

Ralph

Kicius
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Post by Kicius » 06 Oct 2004 08:30

"20.Inf.Div.(mot.) reaches the area northwest Czerkiew and Konitz. Fights with polish 18.Ulan-Rgt. at Krojanty with heavy losses for the enemy. Secured Nowa-Czerkiew and Konitz later on."

http://www.wwIIdaybyday.com - but the date is 1st september.

18 Uhlan rgt. was a part of "Pomorska" Cavalry Brigade.
Rgt lost about 30 killed and 50 wounded

German 20 ID didn't have tanks - maybe tanks from other unit?

Acoording to polish sources the uhlans during the charge came under fire from armoured vehicles hidden in the trees on the left flank. Uhlans withdrawn to the right, and hid behind the hills.

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Mateusz
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Post by Mateusz » 06 Oct 2004 11:39

In fact both Polish and German sources are wrong (I mean all books about this charge). They are bullsh... Witnesses of this incident (Poles) say that Polish cavalry (2 squadrons exactly) wasn't being attacked by tanks, but by HMG's and infantry (situated between trees on the left flank)!!! So why some other witnesses claim that they were being attacked by tanks - the answer is easy: they have imagined it, moreover a battle with tanks sounds much "better" than a battle with infantry...

Mateusz

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Bjørn from Norway
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Post by Bjørn from Norway » 07 Oct 2004 12:27

"When was that book originally published?"

In 1999.

B

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Liluh
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Post by Liluh » 08 Oct 2004 02:23

What ever. I thought it was already settled and we agreed on the general tanks vs. cavarly as a myth? Now go get back to correcting historic books in your local schools classrooms ;) Oh, on other sides, most historic books for growing up kids don`t mention septmeber 1939 in too many details (if at all).

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bolas
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Post by bolas » 23 Oct 2004 11:44

The funniest thing about it is that even in new published books some of western european authors are still making this stupid mistake. In this summer i saw on my own in one of bookshops in Manchester in UK few books about II WW or Septmber 1939 i which authors were still sure about polish cavalry charging german tanks with sabres ;) And all those books were published about 2000-2004. Hopless ... :P

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PolAntek
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Post by PolAntek » 23 Oct 2004 18:48

bolas wrote:Hopless ... :P


My reaction to this persistent myth is more like: :x !!

However, this situation is NOT hopeless. Through efforts such as yours and those of Liluh, Mateusz, Musashi and others to educate the misinformed, little by little the truth will prevail. Keep on fighting the good fight!

mietek
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Post by mietek » 24 Oct 2004 00:25

Hi

Actually it's the biggest succes of German propaganda.
War was finished in 1945, but propaganda after year and years become truth in the peoples minds.

Goebels is the winner.

mietek

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Alter Mann
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Polish Cavalry Attacking Tanks

Post by Alter Mann » 24 Oct 2004 11:26

Let's get back to the real event, though. Polish Cavalry did charge an un-motorized German infantry unit, and was quite successful, until tanks, probably PzKpfw IIs, that were included in the column, intervened. At that point, at least one Polish anti-tank rifle came into action and scored a 'kill'.

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bolas
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Post by bolas » 24 Oct 2004 13:55

yeah right - but there is a huge difference beetween real story and this silly poem ... the fact is that there was surely many events like small engagements beetween polish cavalry and german armoured troops (for example few panzerwagens) - but we have to notice that polish cavalry fought dismounted - like a normal infantry. They had AT guns (very good M36 Bofors AT 37mm), AT rifles, grenades etc ... only difference was that they were much more mobile and weaker in compare to regular polish infantry of those times. In polish books you can find about 13 or 14 stories of events when cavalry unit was charging (against infantry or ...) but those was forced by hoplesness of strategic situation of unit. Usually it happen when uhlans were in encirclement and had simple choice: to get killed or try to charge and save life. I'm sure that anyone of you will choose this litlle chance to save own life. But like i've said - it was a few events maximized by german and italian propaganda (Italian because one of witnesses of charge under Wolka Weglowa was an Italian war correspondent) - thats all.

Dont be suprised by my reaction when i saw this book in UK - it only can be comic - reaction for this kind of "historic material" published in many copies and in beautifull book. Nice photos, nice cover but you can read in it so unimaginable bull...it. Sometimes the only weapon is good laugh :)

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bolas
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Post by bolas » 24 Oct 2004 14:05

18 Uhlan rgt. was a part of "Pomorska" Cavalry Brigade.
Rgt lost about 30 killed and 50 wounded


18 U.Rgt. was covering polish infantry regiments encircled and forced to reatreat. What i've rememberd about this - cavalry recon noticed german infantry. Polish commander decided to attack this infantry with cavalry charge - the charge was succcesfull and german infantry was beaten. But in final moments of this battle about 3 or 4 german armoured cars appeard on flank of charging cavalry and started with MG's. The polish casualites was very high because they were not prepared for this. That's all i remember - i can check it if it will be needed. True and important is that there were NO GERMAN TANKS but just few armoured cars and when they apeared cavalry commander gaved oder to fast retreat. Of cousre it was little bit too late...

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bolas
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Post by bolas » 24 Oct 2004 14:18

Final idea: you have to remeber that this was not only german propaganda. After end of the war Poland stayed under Soviet occupation - and soviet propaganda was forcing a new communist government and new order etc ... one of ways of doing it was to ridicule a pre-1939 Poland with its goverment and army (which most popular and elite part in people's mind's was cavarly). So they were making a jokes, propaganda movies etc - trying to stupify image of pre war Poland in afterwar heads of Poles. "Weak and stupid polish cavalry was charging german tanks with sabres" - about a week ago i've seen in modern polish TV historic channel some of tv-chronicles made by communist in early -50's. They were very smart- for example in that movie we can see original photos of pre war polish cavalry but it is connected with images of late-war german panzerwaffe - like massive King Tiger Pzkmpfwg VI tanks right before Ardennes offensive. That was horrible for eyes of a unaware Pole in 1950's and thats how this myth was spread wide. Thats my way of seeing it.

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