Warsaw Uprising 1944

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Liluh
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Warsaw Uprising 1944

Post by Liluh » 13 May 2004 18:08

I guessed it would be good to bring some light on this pretty important event of war history.

Warsaw Uprising lasted for 63 days and was the biggest battle of opposing forces (not ordinary army) in whole Europe (world?) at that time. It lead to a complete anihilation of the city aswell as over 150.000 citizens. Polish intellectual elite, people who would rebuild and lead Poland after the war lost their lifes, letting Soviets enforce the communism quicker than expected.

What`s your point of view on this topic? Let`s drag it about a little bit.

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Post by Steve » 13 May 2004 19:40

The accusation is made by the Poles that the Soviets betrayed them by sitting on the opposite side of the Vistula and doing nothing and also they refused to allow planes to land on their territory bringing aid.

The objective of the uprising was to take control of Warsaw by the pro London Poles before the Soviets could liberate the city. There was no co-operation between the AK and the Soviets so they knew nothing of the planned uprising and would have had an umpleasant suprise if it had succeded.

The AK commanders (unless they suffered from senile dementia) would remember the events of September 39 the deportations of 40/41 the Katyn massacre the fighting between the Peoples Guard and their forces the arrest and often shooting of home army men in liberated territory. How could they possibly expect any aid from the Soviets, they are maybe lucky Stalin did not order the NKVD to join the SS in the fighting. Hence there was no betrayal the Soviets acted entirely in character.

The Soviets claim their aircraft flew 2,243 sorties bringing aid to the insurgents. The crossing of the Vistula by Berlings men is seldom remembered.

I read the memoirs of an AK commander years ago and unfortunatly no longer remember the author or the books title but he strongly made the point the high command were not the brightest sparks. He regarded his units role as liberation neared them as suicidal and the Warsaw uprising as poorly planned. The Polish army was badly deployed in 1939 and overconfident and it would appear the same military clique was in control of the AK in 1944.

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Post by Liluh » 13 May 2004 20:36

Steve wrote:The accusation is made by the Poles that the Soviets betrayed them by sitting on the opposite side of the Vistula and doing nothing and also they refused to allow planes to land on their territory bringing aid.
*cut*
So, why did Home Army HQ and Polish government in exile decided to extend plan "Burza" ("The Storm") to Warsaw? The primary target of that plan was to take ground after retreating German troops and prepare a semi new Poland for negotiations with Soviets. It was quite obvious Stalin will try to enforce communism in Poland making it a satelite country and "Burza" was suppoused to prevent that from happening as it was a harder task dealing with organized force and authorities than with 'liberated' citizens.
Let`s look at this time frame of event:

==> 20.VII.1944r.
Red Army assualt reaches Belarus and crosses Bug river.
==> 21.VII.1944r.
Communist Polish National Liberation Comitee (under soviet control) is created in Lublin. The same day a Manifesto comes up (with some utter blabla about communistic Poland and such).
==>
Germans force Warsaw citizens to build fortifications. Demand calls for 100.000 workers, those who won`t obey will be executed.
Panic among German troops is arising.
==>
Polish government in exile and Home Army considers PNLC (PKWN) dangerouse for the country, especially if it will spread its influence into capital.
==>
Government in exile decides to extend "Burza" plan to include Warsaw and attack retreating from the city german troops. They decided that the pace Soviets close to the city, and the lack of will to fight among german forces will be enough to take control of the city and 'welcome' soviets on polish demands.
==> 31.VII.1944r.
Not verified information that Soviets entered Warsaw from eastern side. The time is up, order is given out and the uprising breaks.

You have to understand, and I know this from first hand info, how it was alike in the city. In 1944 nobody was precisely sure about Katyn massacre, not many heard about it and even less believed it was Soviets work. Have in mind that Germans found this massive graves (over 15000 killed officers, judges, policemen and so forth) in 1941 and instantly accused Soviets. When the situation changes and german assualt collapsed Soviets were in place to accuse Germans for the massacre - and that`s how it stayed for 50 years until 1989 when the truth was officialy verified.
Imagine, battered German soldiers retreating, platoon after platoon, division after division, dirty, unshaved men, fear in their eyes. Whole eastern front collapsed and retreating troops often passed through Warsaw. Vistuala river seemed like a good defence point where soviet assualt could be stopped, although german HQ didn`t plan to defend Warsaw at all costs, it was more like they were keen to withdraw as many remembered how Paulus got surrounded in Stalingrad and nobody really wanted to get surrounded in another city. Then we have Russians. Those who backstabbed Poland in 1939 now coming back, definately going to try to take control (although you`re wrong saying that the knowledge of Home Army members being executed by Red Army was common. My grandfather fought in forest regiments in Home Army and they often met with russian partisants, often cooperated).

So this is how it looked like for all those Poles in control of events, it`s how it looked for most citizens. You`re completly right, that they didn`t have enough ammo and weapons, in overall they weren`t prepared. They`d do a lot better by staying alive and working for their country than by going for this completly mad and tragic battle. But this is what we know now, at the time idea of uprising seemed quite good and reasonable.

The battle begun. At first germans just kept to their positions and defended if they could. Fights on the eastern part of Warsaw (smaller, beside Praga, it consisted from a large ammount of little houses, turistic or farmer) quickly collapsed, there weren`t enough HA members, neither had they guns and soviets were quite close, commander of HA in this area decided to cease fighting. After few days Soviets reached eastern Warsaw, and with next few days they totally possesed it. Red Army even crossed the river south of Warsaw almost encircling the city. Meanwhile Hitler gave order to regain Warsaw and destroy all partisants. More and more german troops were recalled to the city. Stalin gave a direct order to stop the assualt in this region. Red Army in the south retreated to the other side of the city. After few (really small if we look at the total count of Red Army soldiers gathered around) attempts to cross Vistula (Germans blew bridges) finishing with a total massacre of those soldiers who tried. They even estabilished few spots on the western rivers coast but got totally destroyed. There was no chance to link with fighting Poles, they were separated by German forces. Have in mind, all those from Red Army who tried to cross were Berlings soldiers, which means Poles and only a very small additional soviet units. Berling decided to attack on his own hand, there was no direct order from russian HQ. But how could he succeed if his soviet friends didn`t even give an artillery cover while they crossed the river?

Take a look at the protocol from conversation between Prime Minister in exile, Mikolajczyk and Stalin, in Moskov, 3 sep 1944.

"Mikołajczyk:

[...] Even though we didn`t reach a polish-russian agreement before, our men still fight with Germans around Wilno. Just today I`ve got an information that over 40.000 men started an uprising in Warsaw. Please provide them with ammo supplies to the spots they have in control. I can`t give you a full description of their sabotage actions but all is archived in Allied Forces HQ and russian government can have it.

Stalin:

I don`t have too much informations about the fact, Home Army did something important.

Mikołajczyk:

Can you help those men by delivering ammo?

Stalin:

We will not allow to any action which is outside our lines. That`s why you have to talk to Lublin Comitee. We support it. If you won`t do that, our conversation will lead to nothing. We can`t deal with two governments [...]

Mikołajczyk:

Do you intend to decide about the shape of border right now?

Stalin:

The shape of border can be decided only togheter with Polish Government. You and Lublin Comitee are responsible for archieving an agreement. Then, we can pass on to russian-polish relations."

Russians didn`t have to help really, and that`s not for what they have sinned. They sin is, whole offensive was stopped, becouse Stalin wanted on purpose, to let Germans wipe out polish uprising and do the job for him.
If Red Army would proceed with the offensive, Germans would still retreat like they did before. Thanks to the fact it stopped, german HQ gain breath and recalled all units.

Allied planes had a pretty long fly from southern Italy, while they could carry 10 times more supplies if Stalin would agree to lend soviet bases. It was even worse, since before such plane reached Warsaw the parts of town which were in polish possesion often changed its owner, so in overall 70% drops went into german hands.

Nobody says Warsaw Uprising was a wise choice and decision, but the fact Soviets took part in murdering it is unquestionable.

On a side note, even though there were some russian plane drops with supplies, do you want to know how it looked like? My grandfather who fought there alltogheter with his brothers and uncle witnessed.

An old Kukuruznik (old russian, two place plane) flied around 30 meters above ground, when the pilot saw polish fortifications he kicked out a large bag from his cabin. There was no parachute attached so the bag fall until it crashed on the ground. These drops often carried rotten food or some blankets. Although in the last days of uprising some ate even that rotten food (they also ate horses, dogs, cats and anything else..) - so they broke direct HQ order which told to not to touch russian drops.

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Post by PolAntek » 14 May 2004 20:41

Steve wrote: There was no co-operation between the AK and the Soviets so they knew nothing of the planned uprising and would have had an umpleasant suprise if it had succeded.
On the contrary, the Soviets knew full well of the planned uprising. Even the Germans were suspicious, although (as Liluh described) the German were distracted to a degree because of the collapsing situation on the East Front. The Soviets actively encouraged the start of the uprising by issuing communication dispatches to affect of ‘Poles – the time is NOW to rise against the Germans and free yourselves at last! We are here awaiting your signal and will join in with you to fight our common enemy’.

Liluh’s reply adequately addresses your other points
Steve wrote: … the Soviets acted entirely in character.
Yes, they sure did.

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Post by Liluh » 14 May 2004 21:15

PolAntek wrote:
Steve wrote: There was no co-operation between the AK and the Soviets so they knew nothing of the planned uprising and would have had an umpleasant suprise if it had succeded.
On the contrary, the Soviets knew full well of the planned uprising. Even the Germans were suspicious, although (as Liluh described) the German were distracted to a degree because of the collapsing situation on the East Front. The Soviets actively encouraged the start of the uprising by issuing communication dispatches to affect of ‘Poles – the time is NOW to rise against the Germans and free yourselves at last! We are here awaiting your signal and will join in with you to fight our common enemy’.
Good you mention it, I forgot about even though my grandfather told me that.

I knew, or at least talked with a man (he`s dead now) who was sent in the middle of uprising on the eastern side of the Vistula river to call for soviet assistance. He met with some high officers in Red Army but after smiling warmly and nooding on what he was saying they did nothing. He had a direct letter from Bor-Komorowski.

Funny thing, that guy had to swim through the river during moonless night. Vistula has a quite strong race so when he entered the water in southern Warsaw, he came out barely catching breath, 4km up the river.

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Some pictures

Post by Liluh » 14 May 2004 21:39

Image

Polish troops during uprising. I can`t find better word so let`s use "partizants". Note the equippment. Four of them have german helmets with a white eagle, the fifth one has got, propably, soviet helmet. Obviously only 2 or 3 of them have a gun, including one with mg42 taken from germans. The rest carries ammo and helps. If any of them will fall, the other one will pick up his rifle. That`s how it went. Only around 40% of those who fought had a rifle or at least something to shoot with. The rest helped, did courier or nursery tasks, throw granades or, mainly, so called molotov`s coctails.

Image

Germans destroyed High School on Chlodna street. While only around 40% of the city buildings, in fighting areas got completly destroyed, after the death of uprising germans destroyed the rest of the city house by house, building by building - that was on direct Hitlers order to erase Warsaw from the map. After the war only 25% of buildings still hold their walls straight, and mainly on the eastern part of Warsaw.

Image

Barricades. City was full of it. Anything could be good to fortify, trams, cars, wardrobes, furniture, bricks and at some point, there was a barricade made out of steam trains.

Image
What`s that? Oh well, you`ll guessl. Freshly won on wehrmacht.[/img]

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more pics

Post by Liluh » 14 May 2004 22:28

Image

Prudential - the highest building in Warsaw in the end of uprising...

Image

and in the first days.

Image

Goliath. Small, remote controled (actually by a long cable it dragged behind) little monster which carried around 80kg of explosives. It was designed for urban warfare and was used most frequently in different versions during the uprising.

Image

Thor. Cal. 600, single "bullet" weight around 2000kg which 400kg of crushing explosives inside. Germans used few of them constantly shelling parts of town controlled by Poles.

Image

So called "cow" becouse of the sound it made while firing. Schweres Wurfgestell was also used togheter with nebelwerhfers. It`s similiar to soviet katiuschas, and was also mounted on SdKfz 251/1 Ausf. C Wurfrahmen 40.

Image

Sad, but interesting in its tragedy picture. It has to be noted that a lot of kids, like on this picture, also took an active role in the uprising. Becouse kids were small, they were used as couriers delivering messages and orders. Smaller means harder to shoot. Maybe "used" isn`t right word, they eagerly volounteered and none was forced to do so. Death was upon everyone, not only those fighting, so the common feeling was that if these kids will most likely die anyway, the danger while running with orders wasn`t any bigger than if they`d stay at home.

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Some facts

Post by Liluh » 14 May 2004 23:45

Finally, a grasp of facts (and I promise I won`t flood you with more stuff ;).

Numbers:
Home Army members: around 58.000 (although only around 6.000 went to fight the first day)

from which

Killed: 18.000
Wounded: 25.000
Prisoned: 15.000

+ 3.800 soldiers of Berlings army killed why trying to cross Vistula

Have in mind that most of them joined uprising being called from other parts of Poland. Civilians joining fights, being later signed into HA was also a common sign.


Civilians killed: 180.000 to 200.000
beside that
50.000 taken to concentation camps
150.000 taken for labours in Third Reich


German forces: 55.000 (although in the first days there were only 16.000 set in the city)

Killed: 17.000
Wounded: 9.000
Lost tanks: over 300

Based on what gen. von dem Bach wrote

Take a look at this article to see German point of view on the uprising.

http://www.polishresistance-ak.org/18%20Article.htm

Himmler was suppoused to say that Warsaw, was the same as urban fights in Stalingrad. That speaks for itself.

Other facts:

*Most of wounded Poles didn`t survived. Germans destroyed house by house, also HA hospitals, shutting people inside and either putting explosives or burning the place with flamethrowers - usually both.

*The same happened with civilians. Most common german tactic was to force civilians to walk in front of tanks during assualt, some german soldiers removed their uniforms and walked among them with guns.

*During the siege of Wola district (one of the heaviest fights) German troops killed 40.000 civilians destroying the district to the bare ground.

*15.000 HA soldiers made it through canal-sewer system from surrounded Old city to downtown. Few thousands of wounded were unable to evacuate and in 80% were killed.

*During uprising HA designed and produced own armoured cars, own rifles (based on british STEN), granades and anti-tank bazookas.

*Several german tanks and armoured cars were captured and used by Poles

*At one event, germans left one tank filled with explosives as a trap. Poles took the tank as abondoned and drove it behind their lines where it exploded "splattering" (literally) few hundred HA members and civilians.

*Before surrendering, Home Army HQ payed each soldier 10$ + some other cash. Some members were promoted to officer ranks. Partially becouse of what they did, partially becouse they got better living in oflags.

*The day of surrender was agreed with German command. Poles marched in order, dropping guns and ammo on piles, after that they were escorted to railstation and transported inside the 3rd Reich.

*In the end, all Home Army members fighting in the uprising were considered as Allied soldiers and treated as such by the Germans.



By looking at these numbers we can clearly see that Germans lost similiar number of men during the Uprising, like they did during 1939. This tells a lot.

German troops which took part in fights:

At first commanded by gen. Reiner Stahel, then after few days Erich von dem Bach and at some range - Himmler.

Ostpreußen Grenadier Regiment 4
Wachregiment Warschau, Oberst Lange
Alarmregiment Warschau
Landesschützenbataillon 996.
Landesschützenbataillon 997.
Landesschützenbataillon 998.
military police from Oberfeldkommandantur
Genesungs-Kompanie - Hptm. Uhlig,
Sicherungsbataillon 944.
Pioniere-Bataillon 146.
Panzerabteilug 743.
475. companion of armour riflemen(? - i`m not sure how it should sound in english)

Under SS-Brigadeführer Paul Otto Geibel
SS Polizei-Regiment 22. Schutzpolizei - Oberst W. Rodewald:
+ überfallkommando
SA-Standarte "Feldherrnhalle" - ochrona pałacu Brühla
Gendarmerie - Oberst Göde
Ordnungspolizei
Sicherheitspolizei and SD Ludwig Hahn
In some number Ukrainians (under gen. Wlasov) and Cossacks
SS-Staufernkaserne
SS Stubaf. Willy Plank
SS-Reitersturm 8. - Hstuf. Dichtmann
Some antiaircraft brigade togheter with engineer brigade
Pioniere-Bataillon 654
Panz-Parachute Hermann Göring Division
SS-Panzer-Nachrichtenabteilung
SS-Sturmbrigade Dirlewanger (about these lads - that was so called "black brigade", it consisted of criminals. They fought without fear and mercy and didn`t expect it for theirselves. On the first day brigade counted 881 men, during uprising they lost 2733 - that`s a number including reinforcments of course).

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Post by Panzermahn » 15 May 2004 01:32

Thanks for sharing with us the pictures, Liluh..

but how were this pictures taken and smuggled out?

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Post by Benoit Douville » 15 May 2004 02:21

Liluh,

That's a very interesting and tragic story. What do you think about that Battle? Do you think it was necessary?

I think the Poles fought bravely and I have a lot respect for them to fight against the occupied Germans. If they had won the Battle, they would have been in better postion to negotiate with the Soviets.

Regards

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Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 15 May 2004 05:31

Liluh wrote:
PolAntek wrote:
Steve wrote: There was no co-operation between the AK and the Soviets so they knew nothing of the planned uprising and would have had an umpleasant suprise if it had succeded.
On the contrary, the Soviets knew full well of the planned uprising. Even the Germans were suspicious, although (as Liluh described) the German were distracted to a degree because of the collapsing situation on the East Front. The Soviets actively encouraged the start of the uprising by issuing communication dispatches to affect of ‘Poles – the time is NOW to rise against the Germans and free yourselves at last! We are here awaiting your signal and will join in with you to fight our common enemy’.
Upsrisng was not cooridnated with Red Army, Warsaw was never a goal of the Soviet offensive, VVS did fly in support of uprisng and AA divsion was set up to provide some air cover. What Berling did was an recless -he knew full well that Red Army was in no position to capture city -it manged to do so only after shortening suppy lines and repelish its suplies. Brodacts were not authorized and people who did conducted them were punished.

Good you mention it, I forgot about even though my grandfather told me that.

I knew, or at least talked with a man (he`s dead now) who was sent in the middle of uprising on the eastern side of the Vistula river to call for soviet assistance. He met with some high officers in Red Army but after smiling warmly and nooding on what he was saying they did nothing. He had a direct letter from Bor-Komorowski.

Funny thing, that guy had to swim through the river during moonless night. Vistula has a quite strong race so when he entered the water in southern Warsaw, he came out barely catching breath, 4km up the river.
Uprising was not coordinated with Red Army, Warsaw was never a goal of the Soviet offensive, VVS did fly in support of uprising and AA division was set up to provide some air cover. What Berling did was an reckless -he knew full well that Red Army was in no position to capture city -it managed to do so only after shortening supply lines and replenish its supplies. Broadcast were not authorized and people who did conducted them were punished.

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Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 15 May 2004 05:50

Here's what Dvid Glantz had to say about combat in that area.
Operational details about Soviet combat on the approaches to Warsaw can be reconstructed from fragmentary Soviet and German archival sources (see map 15). On 28 July 1994, Maj. Gen. A. I. Radzievsky's 2d Tank Army, which had been turned north from the Magnuszew region to strike at Warsaw, with three corps abreast, engaged German 73d Infantry Division and the Hermann Goering Parachute Panzer Division 40 kilometers southeast of Warsaw. A race ensued between Radzievsky, who was seeking to seize the routes into Warsaw from the east, and the Germans, who were attempting to keep these routes open and maintain possession of Warsaw.33 The nearest Soviet forces within supporting range of Radzievsky were 47th Army and 11th Tank and 2d Guards Cavalry Corps, then fighting for possession of Seidlce, 50 kilometers to the east. On 29 July Radzievsky dispatched his 8th Guards and 3d Tank Corps northward in an attempt to swing northeast of Warsaw and turn the German defender's left flank, while his 16th Tank Corps continued to fight on the southeastern approaches to the city's suburbs.

Although 8th Guards Tank Corps successfully fought to within 20 kilometers east of the city, 3d Tank Corps ran into a series of successive panzer counterattacks orchestrated by Field Marshal W. Model, new commander of Army Group Center. Beginning on 30 July, the Hermann Goering and 19th Panzer Divisions struck the overextended and weakened tank corps north of Wolomin, 15 kilometers northeast of Warsaw. Although the corps withstood three days of counterattacks, on 2 and 3 August, 4th Panzer Division and SS Panzer Division Viking joined the fight. In three days of intense fighting, 3d Tank Corps was severely mauled, and 8th Guards Tank Corps was also severely pressed. By 5 August 47th Army forces had arrived in the region, and 2d Tank Army was withdrawn for rest and refitting. The three rifle corps of 47th Army were now stretched out along a front of 80 kilometers from south of Warsaw to Seidlce and were unable to renew the drive on Warsaw or to the Narew River. German communications lines eastward to Army Group Center, then fighting for its life north and west of Brest, had been damaged but not severed.

Meanwhile, on 1 August the Polish Home Army had launched an insurrection in the city. Although they seized large areas in downtown Warsaw, the insurgents failed to secure the four bridges over the Vistula and were unable to hold the eastern suburbs of the city (Praga). During the ensuing weeks, while the Warsaw uprising progressed and ultimately failed, the Soviets continued their drive against Army Group Center northeast of Warsaw. For whatever motive, 1st Belorussian Front focused on holding firmly to the Magnuszew bridgehead, which was subjected to heavy German counterattacks throughout mid-August, and on driving forward across the Bug River to seize crossings over the Narew River necessary to facilitate future offensive operations.

Soviet 47th Army remained the only major force opposite Warsaw until 20 August, when it was joined by 1st Polish Army. Soviet forces finally broke out across the Bug River on 3 September, closed up to the Narew River the following day, and fought their way into bridgeheads across the Narew on 6 September. On 13 September lead elements of two Polish divisions assaulted across the Vistula River into Warsaw but made little progress and were evacuated back across the river on 23 September.34

Political considerations and motivations aside, an objective consideration of combat in the region indicates that, prior to early September, German resistance was sufficient to halt any Soviet assistance to the Poles in Warsaw, were it intended. Thereafter, it would have required a major reorientation of military efforts from Magnuszew in the south or, more realistically, from the Bug and Narew River axis in the north in order to muster sufficient force to break into Warsaw. And once broken into, Warsaw would have been a costly city to clear of Germans and an unsuitable location from which to launch a new offensive.

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Post by PolAntek » 15 May 2004 07:12

Oleg Grigoryev wrote: ...Warsaw was never a goal of the Soviet offensive...
Not quite. Simply put – Stalin had his eyes set on Poland. And in order to achieve his objective he would need to seize the capital city sooner or later.
Oleg Grigoryev wrote: David Glantz:
…Political considerations and motivations aside, an objective consideration of combat in the region indicates that, prior to early September, German resistance was sufficient to halt any Soviet assistance to the Poles in Warsaw, were it intended. Thereafter, it would have required a major reorientation of military efforts from Magnuszew in the south or, more realistically, from the Bug and Narew River axis in the north in order to muster sufficient force to break into Warsaw. And once broken into, Warsaw would have been a costly city to clear of Germans and an unsuitable location from which to launch a new offensive.
Oleg, that’s all fine and dandy, but the fact remains that the Soviets refused permission to the British and Americans to use their airfields to drop ammunition and relief supplies! Not only do the Soviet have the blood of countless Poles on their hands, but also that of courageous Allied air crews who perished on their flight from distant air bases to assist the Poles - due in part because they did not have the use of nearby Soviet airfields.

Only after a German victory was a certainty did the Soviets permit some air drops which included a small quantity of ammunition. However, this ammunition proved useless as it was made for Soviet armaments and did not fit the Poles' weapons! The Soviet intent, of course, was not so much to aid the Poles but to prolong the conflict and thus weaken both the Germans and the Poles to Soviet advantage. With the Germans eventually defeated there were almost no forces* left to oppose Soviet political domination in Poland. Gotta give credit to Stalin – he knew what he was doing.

* the resistance that remained was systematically hunted down slaughtered by the Soviets in the years following the "great Allied victory" in 1945. The horrors of war continued on the blood soaked Polish soil.

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Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 15 May 2004 09:01

Not quite. Simply put – Stalin had his eyes set on Poland. And in order to achieve his objective he would need to seize the capital city sooner or later.
What not quite? Capture of Warsaw was not a part of “Bagrtion” – Rokossvkiy far prior to the arrival his forces to Vistula reported that basically no chance in hell that he capture Warsaw on the move.
Oleg, that’s all fine and dandy, but the fact remains that the Soviets refused permission to the British and Americans to use their airfields to drop ammunition and relief supplies! Not only do the Soviet have the blood of countless Poles on their hands, but also that of courageous Allied air crews who perished on their flight from distant air bases to assist the Poles - due in part because they did not have the use of nearby Soviet airfields.
And if they permitted Poles would held Warsaw for several months? Please AK has only itself to blame –if it really wanted to capture Warsaw it would have coordinated with the Red Army and it did not. Did the AK command thought about Soviet soldiers who would have needlessly died in support of their half-assed badly planed attempt for capture?
Only after a German victory was a certainty did the Soviets permit some air drops which included a small quantity of ammunition
Without support of the Red Army German victory was certain –period no airdrops would help. Btw the airdrop that did take place –most of the equipment fell into German hands and was later used against Red Army –thank you very much.
However, this ammunition proved useless as it was made for Soviet armaments and did not fit the Poles' weapons!
VVS was dropping both weapons and ammo for them, and it was droping German ammo as well – I do have report with all quantities and such.
The Soviet intent, of course, was not so much to aid the Poles but to prolong the conflict and thus weaken both the Germans and the Poles to Soviet advantage
and airdrops by allies would cause different effect?
With the Germans eventually defeated there were almost no forces* left to oppose Soviet political domination in Poland. Gotta give credit to Stalin – he knew what he was doing.
I don’t think he was –he spent hell of lot resources supporting the uprising that was openly hostile to him.
the resistance that remained was systematically hunted down slaughtered by the Soviets in the years following the "great Allied victory" in 1945. The horrors of war continued on the blood soaked Polish soil.
Oh please.. most of AK was hunted down by Bandera boys – number captured by Soviets was insignificant (and yes I do have numbers).

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Post by PolAntek » 15 May 2004 11:21

Oleg Grigoryev wrote:
Not quite. Simply put – Stalin had his eyes set on Poland. And in order to achieve his objective he would need to seize the capital city sooner or later.
What not quite? Capture of Warsaw was not a part of “Bagrtion” – Rokossvkiy far prior to the arrival his forces to Vistula reported that basically no chance in hell that he capture Warsaw on the move. .
“sooner or later” Warsaw had to be taken by Stalin’s forces. If one plans to take over a nation, the capital city is a logical objective.
Oleg Grigoryev wrote:
Oleg, that’s all fine and dandy, but the fact remains that the Soviets refused permission to the British and Americans to use their airfields to drop ammunition and relief supplies! Not only do the Soviet have the blood of countless Poles on their hands, but also that of courageous Allied air crews who perished on their flight from distant air bases to assist the Poles - due in part because they did not have the use of nearby Soviet airfields.
And if they permitted Poles would held Warsaw for several months? Please AK has only itself to blame –if it really wanted to capture Warsaw it would have coordinated with the Red Army and it did not. Did the AK command thought about Soviet soldiers who would have needlessly died in support of their half-assed badly planed attempt for capture? .


First, I am not defending AK decision to fight, nor their misplaced hope in receiving help from the West. But this was the AK plan all along – an armed uprising against the German occupier, for better or for worse. Second, the decision to fight was intended to stake a claim to Warsaw on behalf of the LEGITIMATE London based Polish government, not the puppet Soviet government. Therefore, why would the Poles ally themselves with imposters? The AK was counting on support from the west, not “half assed” (if only they received that much) Soviet support. The Soviet so called “allies” were single mindedly bent on the domination of Poland.
Oleg Grigoryev wrote:
Only after a German victory was a certainty did the Soviets permit some air drops which included a small quantity of ammunition
Without support of the Red Army German victory was certain –period no airdrops would help. Btw the airdrop that did take place –most of the equipment fell into German hands and was later used against Red Army –thank you very much. .
Once again, a calculated tactic designed to prolong the conflict for Soviet advantage.
Oleg Grigoryev wrote:
However, this ammunition proved useless as it was made for Soviet armaments and did not fit the Poles' weapons!
VVS was dropping both weapons and ammo for them, and it was droping German ammo as well – I do have report with all quantities and such.


Drops of German ammo – I can hear the cries of “danke schein” from the German side.
Oleg Grigoryev wrote:
The Soviet intent, of course, was not so much to aid the Poles but to prolong the conflict and thus weaken both the Germans and the Poles to Soviet advantage
and airdrops by allies would cause different effect? .


Agreed - most of the air drops by the Brits / Americans did not hit their intended targets. But their motive was one of assistance. The Soviet’s was not. If the Soviets wanted to help they would have allowed use of their air fields. Is this too hard to understand?
Oleg Grigoryev wrote:
With the Germans eventually defeated there were almost no forces* left to oppose Soviet political domination in Poland. Gotta give credit to Stalin – he knew what he was doing.
I don’t think he was –he spent hell of lot resources supporting the uprising that was openly hostile to him. .
What!? Oh yeah – ol’ Uncle Joe was very concerned about the Poles and their desire for a free and independent homeland. Of course the Poles were openly hostile to him. And well before they knew the truth about Katyn.
Oleg Grigoryev wrote:
the resistance that remained was systematically hunted down slaughtered by the Soviets in the years following the "great Allied victory" in 1945. The horrors of war continued on the blood soaked Polish soil.
Oh please.. most of AK was hunted down by Bandera boys – number captured by Soviets was insignificant (and yes I do have numbers).
Regardless, even one murdered Pole fighting for a free homeland is just that - murder. A specialty of the Soviet occupier. And your assertion that the OUB and UPA - a mob of undisciplined drunken punks whose claim to fame was the sadistic slaughter of defenseless women and children - significantly depleted the AK ranks, well - I can't say it any better than you: "oh please".

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