Warsaw Uprising 1944

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Liluh
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Post by Liluh » 01 Aug 2005 22:26

Dragos

You propably mean Schenk`s testimony? That`s believed to be the truth. Schenk also mentions that unexpecting wounded german soldiers asked their fellow comrades to not to harm polish personel nor patients. All were executed in their 'beds'. Extermination of those who were unable to evacuate from hospital was not something uncommon during those days and happend on several ocassions. If you`ll have in mind that after conquering Wola district, Germans killed thousands of innocent civilians, this sort of treatment should be surprising.

Replying to your question, Dirlewanger was for sure not someone who I would call 'sane'.

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dragos
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Post by dragos » 01 Aug 2005 22:34

Liluh wrote:Schenk also mentions that unexpecting wounded german soldiers asked their fellow comrades to not to harm polish personel nor patients. All were executed in their 'beds'.
That's exactly what the veteran said. Thnough I can't recall his name.
Replying to your question, Dirlewanger was for sure not someone who I would call 'sane'
Unfortunately, too many like him in the war.

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Post by Molobo » 01 Aug 2005 22:52

If you`ll have in mind that after conquering Wola district, Germans killed thousands of innocent civilians,
If I recall Germans murdered 40.000 to 50.000 civilians in Wola to crush the will to fight of Poles.
From city web pages:
http://www.wola.waw.pl/index.php?go=6&s ... erpien.htm
Niemcy rozstrzelali w ciągu 48 godzin ok. 35 tys. ludzi.
In 48 hours Germans executed circa 35 thousand people.
So Dirlewanger was just a small part of the slaughter.

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Kim Sung
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Popiol i diament(1958):Polish Resistance against the Soviets

Post by Kim Sung » 03 Aug 2005 08:33

I'm reading an article about the famous Polish filmmaker Andrzej Wajda. I know that Ashes and Diamonds (1958), one of the trilogy about the effects of World War II on Poland, deals with Polish resistance movement against the Soviet Union, the betrayer of Powstanie Warszawskie. In this movie, Maciek Chelmicki, a Polish man attempts to assassinate a high ranking official of the Polish communist party.

1.Was there any real assassination attempt against Polish collaborator or attack against Soviet troops in retaliation for the Soviet betrayal of Warsaw Uprising after the war like this?

2. I'm also wondering how Andrzej Wajda could make this anti-Soviet movie at the time.

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Post by Slavomir » 03 Aug 2005 12:02

Hello,

Starting with the question 2: it wasn't clearly anti-Soviet movie. It was rather tragedy of young population decived by older "reactionists-London-supported-type" characters to fight against their country and their inability to start living in afterwar situatio. Only such perspective was allowed at that time. I have to mention that it was after 1956 incidents in Poznan and some kind of "thaw" in the hardliners in communist party.

As for the quesion 1: yes, there was a resistance in Poland against communism. in Jan 19 1945 Polish Armia Krajowa (AK) was disbanded but after mass arests and deportation, not to mention the trial of the last commandant of the AK and his staff (by the way the trial was conducted in Moscow!!!), some of the former AK members organized again partisan groups which actively fought until mid-1948.

There should be also mentioned UPA units fighting in the Ukraine on both sides of the new Polish-Soviet border. In part they were anti-Soviet, but I don't want to go into details, it's too tense topic I think...

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Post by Molobo » 03 Aug 2005 13:51

It was rather tragedy of young population decived by older "reactionists-London-supported-type" characters to fight against their country and their inability to start living in afterwar situatio.
You should know however killchola that the bitter irony and the depth of Soviet Union's deceit is that the Soviet Union itself encouraged Poles to stage uprising.
This was transmitted by the Soviets days before the Uprising was staged:
Moskow Radio Station Kosciuszko July 29, 1944 broadcast.

Text by the BBC Monitoring Service on July 30, 1944.
[Moscow in Polish, July 29, 1944. 8:15 p.m.]

Appeal to Warsaw: Fight The Germans!

No doubt Warsaw already hears the guns of the battle which is soon to bring her liberation. Those who have never bowed their heads to the Hitlerite power will again, as in 1939, join battle with the Germans, this time for decisive action. The Polish Army now entering Polish territory, trained in the Soviet Union, is now joined to the People's Army to form the Corps of the Polish Armed Forces, the armed arm of our nation in its struggle for independence.

Its ranks will be joined tomorrow by the sons of Warsaw. They will all together, with the Allied Army pursue the enemy westwards, wipe out the Hitlerite vermin from Polish land and strike a mortal blow at the beast of Prussian Imperialism. For Warsaw, which did not yield but fought on, the hour of action has already arrived. The Germans will no doubt try to defend themselves in Warsaw and add new destruction and thousands of victims. Our houses and our parks, our bridges and our railway stations, our factories and public buildings will be turned into defence positions.
They will expose the city to ruin and its inhabitants to death. They will try to take away all the most precious possessions and turn into dust all that they have to leave behind. It is, therefore, a hundred times more necessary than ever to remember that in the flood of Hitlerite destruction all is lost that is not saved by active effort ; that by direct, active struggle in the streets of Warsaw, in its houses, factories and stores, we not only hasten the moment of final liberation, but also save a Nation's property and the lives of our brothers.
I know that Ashes and Diamonds (1958), one of the trilogy about the effects of World War II on Poland, deals with Polish resistance movement against the Soviet Union, the betrayer of Powstanie Warszawskie. In this movie, Maciek Chelmicki, a Polish man attempts to assassinate a high ranking official of the Polish communist party.
The film btw is based on true story, but it is a rather twisted version.It is a very long and complicated one, which details I don't remember exactly know, but the death of communist leader was rather more banal, he was pillaging some house for stylish suit(he was elected by the commies to be a mayor or some high post and he had no "oficial" clothes for the job) and local residents alarmed some Home Army soldiers that bandits were rampaging in the city(this was common in postwar Poland), so they went and shooting started in which the mayor was killed by the young Home Army soldier...He had to hide and later was arrested(they used a love he developed a women from Home Army) and later got freed during one of the last Home Army actions in which they freed several political prisoners from communist prison.
Like I said I don't remember the exact details, but this was told me by university profesor so I do think it is true.The history of anticommunist activites of Home Army is still hard to get in Poland even this days.
The script btw was made like this because communist party wanted to make some propaganda films and one of communists responsible for culture had a brother in communist security and asked him if he had any good stories he could share.

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Kim Sung
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Yes, it was Stalin's trap

Post by Kim Sung » 03 Aug 2005 15:08

Stalin wanted to catch two birds with a stone. Annihilating AK and weakening Germans in Warsaw... He could do anything to achieve his aim. Stalin gave dishonor to the red army. That is, betrayal at Visla left a stigma to the victory of the Soviet people... And if the red army hadn't stopped in front of Warsaw and advance toward western Poland, hundreds of thosands of inmates in concentraton camps could have survived.

Even if this might be an extreme assumption, I think there's a possiblity that Stalin stopped his army to give Hitler time enough to exterminate Jews stalin hated even more than Hitler did.

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Re: Popiol i diament(1958):Polish Resistance against the Sov

Post by Liluh » 03 Aug 2005 22:33

killchola wrote:I'm reading an article about the famous Polish filmmaker Andrzej Wajda. I know that Ashes and Diamonds (1958), one of the trilogy about the effects of World War II on Poland, deals with Polish resistance movement against the Soviet Union, the betrayer of Powstanie Warszawskie. In this movie, Maciek Chelmicki, a Polish man attempts to assassinate a high ranking official of the Polish communist party.

1.Was there any real assassination attempt against Polish collaborator or attack against Soviet troops in retaliation for the Soviet betrayal of Warsaw Uprising after the war like this?

2. I'm also wondering how Andrzej Wajda could make this anti-Soviet movie at the time.
Although it`s kinda offtopic question, I`ll add something to what others wrote.

Oh, and it`s one of my favourite movies, I really love it, especially the great acting of Cybulski (Maciek). You should really watch it.

1. After AK got disbanded several other organizations took it place, made mainly by old AK members. During first years after the war, the whole resistance movement was believed to count around 30.000 (armed) members. Most important organization was called "WiN" - Wolnosc i Niezawislosc ("Freedom and Independence"). Everything was over in 1948 as NKVD togheter with UB, took out (arrested and often executed) whole leadership in 7 or 8 big set ups (so called "traps") in different parts of Poland. The same happened in regards to political opposition.

2. Pretty surprising, isn`t it? Not that many people have seen it until 1989. You have to watch it to understand though.

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Re: Yes, it was Stalin's trap

Post by PolAntek » 07 Aug 2005 00:28

killchola wrote:Even if this might be an extreme assumption, I think there's a possiblity that Stalin stopped his army to give Hitler time enough to exterminate Jews stalin hated even more than Hitler did.
I would have to disagree considering the well known fact that the post war Soviet appointed governemnt and ruling class of Poland consisted of a disproportionately high number of Jews. These many Jews were hand picked for the job by Moscow.

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Re: Yes, it was Stalin's trap

Post by Kunikov » 07 Aug 2005 05:50

killchola wrote:Stalin wanted to catch two birds with a stone. Annihilating AK and weakening Germans in Warsaw... He could do anything to achieve his aim. Stalin gave dishonor to the red army. That is, betrayal at Visla left a stigma to the victory of the Soviet people... And if the red army hadn't stopped in front of Warsaw and advance toward western Poland, hundreds of thosands of inmates in concentraton camps could have survived.

Even if this might be an extreme assumption, I think there's a possiblity that Stalin stopped his army to give Hitler time enough to exterminate Jews stalin hated even more than Hitler did.
The offensive stopped because it had run its course, it was never intended to even get as far as the gates of Warsaw. The Red Army also tried to get to Warsaw, it was unsuccessful for a number of reasons, you can refer to Rokossovsky's memoirs.

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Post by Slavomir » 07 Aug 2005 08:15

Definitely Russian offensive run out of steam, especialy after batle of Wolomin and Radzymin.

The Stalin's guilt, however is out of question. For few reasons:

1) Stalin did not allow Allied planes, which dropped supplies for insurgents, to land on Russian airfields.

2) In the face of Russian supremacy in the air, just few obsolete Stukas was able to bomb Warsaw day by day, without any counteraction,

3) Where was powerful Russian artillery? I don't think that ahooting across the Vistula was out of range.

4) Red Army did not provide support for Polish 1st Army units, which tried to cross Vistula to support uprisng. Again no artillery or air support...

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Post by PolAntek » 07 Aug 2005 08:30

Slavomir wrote:Definitely Russian offensive run out of steam, especialy after batle of Wolomin and Radzymin.

The Stalin's guilt, however is out of question. For few reasons:

1) Stalin did not allow Allied planes, which dropped supplies for insurgents, to land on Russian airfields.

2) In the face of Russian supremacy in the air, just few obsolete Stukas was able to bomb Warsaw day by day, without any counteraction,

3) Where was powerful Russian artillery? I don't think that ahooting across the Vistula was out of range.

4) Red Army did not provide support for Polish 1st Army units, which tried to cross Vistula to support uprisng. Again no artillery or air support...
Agreed on all counts.

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Post by Kunikov » 07 Aug 2005 18:30

Slavomir wrote:Definitely Russian offensive run out of steam, especialy after batle of Wolomin and Radzymin.

The Stalin's guilt, however is out of question. For few reasons:
Stalin has no guilt in this as he owed nothing to Poland.
1) Stalin did not allow Allied planes, which dropped supplies for insurgents, to land on Russian airfields.
In September the VVS supplied Warsaw itself, personally I think both were utter failures and were worthless. The uprising was started without letting the Red Army forces know of it and continued without establishing any kind of communications with the Red Army, even though Rokossovsky wanted to help.
2) In the face of Russian supremacy in the air, just few obsolete Stukas was able to bomb Warsaw day by day, without any counteraction,
They shoot up Soviet troops as well, refer to Rokossovsky again, while his planes were busy supporting the 1st Polish Army over the Vistula, his men were getting shot up by the Germans luftwaffe.
3) Where was powerful Russian artillery? I don't think that ahooting across the Vistula was out of range.
What were they supposed to aim at? Poles didn't want anything to do with them.
4) Red Army did not provide support for Polish 1st Army units, which tried to cross Vistula to support uprisng. Again no artillery or air support...
Poles left the beachead where the 1st Polish Army was supposed to land, they were slaughtered and had to retreat. On the first meeting with the AK, the AK declared "that the AK took its orders only from the London Polish government and its emissaries. They defined their attitude towards us in the words, 'We shall not use arms against the Red ARmy, but we do not wish to have any contacts.'" What happened to the two signal men parachuted into Warsaw to help establish contact? They brought it on themselves, if they are greedy enough to want to strike without Red Army help so that they can control their capital, they saw the results.

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Post by Slavomir » 07 Aug 2005 19:20

Maybe for you Rokossowski is valuable and objective source of information. Sorry, but for me is not.
Stalin has no guilt in this as he owed nothing to Poland.
The uprising was started without letting the Red Army forces know of it and continued without establishing any kind of communications with the Red Army, even though Rokossovsky wanted to help.
So, first you call people to join the fight against Germans (vide Molobo's post above) and then you are surprised...
Rokossowski maybe wanted to help, but remeber that he could not do anything without Moscow's approval.
They shoot up Soviet troops as well, refer to Rokossovsky again, while his planes were busy supporting the 1st Polish Army over the Vistula, his men were getting shot up by the Germans luftwaffe.
Strange though, I have read accounts of the soldiers from 1st Army, even official history of that unit and I could not find any Russian airplanes supporting the crossing, just the opposite, lack of artillery and air support significantly hampered the whole operation.

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Post by Kunikov » 07 Aug 2005 19:32

Slavomir wrote: So, first you call people to join the fight against Germans (vide Molobo's post above) and then you are surprised...
Rokossowski maybe wanted to help, but remeber that he could not do anything without Moscow's approval.
Soviet radio called on all cities to start uprisings, that's first, secondly uprisings should be done with cooperation of the Red Army, otherwise don't complain.
Strange though, I have read accounts of the soldiers from 1st Army, even official history of that unit and I could not find any Russian airplanes supporting the crossing, just the opposite, lack of artillery and air support significantly hampered the whole operation.
Read his memoirs, you read accounts from the 1st Army and the official history, now read the front commanders memoirs.

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