Warsaw Uprising 1944

Discussions on all aspects of Poland during the Second Polish Republic and the Second World War. Hosted by Piotr Kapuscinski.
Slavomir
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Post by Slavomir » 07 Aug 2005 19:49

"Read his memoirs, you read accounts from the 1st Army and the official history, now read the front commanders memoirs".
If you did not catch, 1st Polish Army was fighting in the east under the Red Army command. It's rather difficult to count them as pro-London Government biased source.

Moreover why in your opinion Rokossowski is more valuable source than soldiers who actually fought on the Vistula river, without artillery and air support. Is that because it supports your point of view?
"Soviet radio called on all cities to start uprisings"
Nice, you call all cities close to the frontline to start uprising. And when at last one of them responds you start complaining... then why are you calling at all?

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Kunikov
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Post by Kunikov » 07 Aug 2005 19:57

Slavomir wrote:
If you did not catch, 1st Polish Army was fighting in the east under the Red Army command. It's rather difficult to count them as pro-London Government biased source.
AK was pro-London Government, read more carefully what I write.
Moreover why in your opinion Rokossowski is more valuable source than soldiers who actually fought on the Vistula river, without artillery and air support. Is that because it supports your point of view?
A soldier only sees what is in front of him, Rokossovsky commanded an entire front.
Nice, you call all cities close to the frontline to start uprising. And when at last one of them responds you start complaining... then why are you calling at all?
Once more, if there was cooperation, perhaps more could have been done.

Molobo
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Post by Molobo » 08 Aug 2005 01:21

Once more, if there was cooperation, perhaps more could have been done.
In Wilno and Lwow local Home Army units engaged in cooperation with Soviet forces.After defeating Germans together Polish partisants were invited to victory celebrations by Soviet commaders.
All who appeared were arrested and imprisoned.Ground soldiers were incorporated into Soviet army if they were lucky, while officers and unlucky ones were either executed or sent to prisons or gulags.
Several Home Army units were attacked later by Soviet forces.Thousands of soldiers murdered.As Home Army was part of Polish State in exile, it was a murder of Allied soldiers by Soviet side,of course one often forgets that Katyn massacre was also massacre on Allied soldiers.
Murder and imprisoment of Home Army soldiers by Soviet side after cooperation in military actions took part before Warsaw Uprising.

Stalin has no guilt in this as he owed nothing to Poland.
Interesting.Can you explain why, despite being part of Allies(beside Poland), Soviet forces engaged in murder of Allied soldiers ? This fact should brought into more light, perhaps even as far to consider (despite propaganda) Soviet side to be a seperate force, and not Axis or Allied side.
Last edited by Molobo on 08 Aug 2005 02:39, edited 1 time in total.

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Kim Sung
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How could they get weapons like this?

Post by Kim Sung » 08 Aug 2005 02:37

These are movie clips from The Pianist. The weapon this polish guy shoots to Szpital Srodmiejski is Panzerfaust 60. How could he get this? From where? What kinds of weapons did use the Poles?
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César C.
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Post by César C. » 08 Aug 2005 05:06

These are movie clips from The Pianist. The weapon this polish guy shoots to Szpital Srodmiejski is Panzerfaust 60. How could he get this? From where? What kinds of weapons did use the Poles?
Hello.
Probably he got the Panzerfaust from a dead German, but we should have to ask the Director of the movie to be 100% sure. From where? We will have to ask the Director of the movie to have a correct answer.
They used every weapon they could get: pistols, rifles, shotguns, hand grenades, and molotov cocktails for the most part.

Regards,
Cesar

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Kunikov
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Post by Kunikov » 08 Aug 2005 05:25

Molobo wrote: Interesting.Can you explain why, despite being part of Allies(beside Poland), Soviet forces engaged in murder of Allied soldiers ? This fact should brought into more light, perhaps even as far to consider (despite propaganda) Soviet side to be a seperate force, and not Axis or Allied side.
AK weren't saints, Jews were killed, among others, why did they kill 'allies'?

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Kim Sung
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Post by Kim Sung » 08 Aug 2005 07:11

I know this is a movie and can't be necessarily based on 100% accurate truth. What I want to know is through which routes the AK got their weapons and with which country's weapons they were equipped, for example, submachine guns and rifles in these movie clips.
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Kim Sung
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Anti-tank Weapons of Armiya Krakova

Post by Kim Sung » 08 Aug 2005 07:17

Didn't they have any anti-tank weapons except Molotov cocktails and some captured Panzerfausts?
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szopen
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Post by szopen » 08 Aug 2005 09:19

killchola wrote:I know this is a movie and can't be necessarily based on 100% accurate truth. What I want to know is through which routes the AK got their weapons and with which country's weapons they were equipped, for example, submachine guns and rifles in these movie clips.
Some weapons were manufactured. Some were bought (Yes!). Some were saved from the 1939.

Stoigniew
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Post by Stoigniew » 08 Aug 2005 10:09

AK killing Jews :? :x
Not many know, that:
1. During the Warsaw Uprising AK liberated Jews from the concentration camp Gęsiówka in Warsaw (one of captured Panther tanks was used).
2. There was many Polish Jews among AK fighters.
3. AK and Polish Underground State tried to help the Jews as much as it was possible, there was even special organisation ,,Żegota'' to help them.
4. During the Uprising in Ghetto AK supplied the Jews with weapons (however AK did not have too many weapons - see Warsaw Uprising)and planned big armed action to help them - this action was aborted becouse Germans get informed about it and took hostages and improved security aroun Ghetto walls.
5. Only in occupied Poland, Yugoslavia and occupied part of USSR was death penalty for whole family for helping Jews.
Naturally, AK were no saints - as every army, especially partisan army. Criminals, who killed Jews or informed Germans about them, were sentenced to death by Polish underground courts.
Sorry for my English an for being a little off topic.
Cheers,
Stoigniew

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Qvist
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Post by Qvist » 08 Aug 2005 10:17

Kunikov;

I hardly think Rokossovsky's memoirs are a very objective source for AK/Red Army relations. The supposed reluctance of the Warsaw AK to have anything to do with the Red Army is in rather marked contrast to what is told in f.e., Norman Davies, Rising '44. As is indeed obvious - the rising was doomed if the Germans were allowed to deal with it in isolation, which the AK leadership knew very well. Hence, it was fundamentally predicated on the expectation of the arrival of the Red Army, on which everything depended. Their non-arrival appears to have been at least considerably due to increased German resistance, and so the AK leadership clearly miscalculated. I do not think however they can reasonably be accused of having failed to co-ordinate themselves in advance with a Red Army that was already rounding up AK soldiers in Eastern Poland after having fought alongside them, and with which the Warsaw AK had no reliable means of communication.

cheers

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Musashi
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Post by Musashi » 08 Aug 2005 10:35

szopen wrote:
killchola wrote:I know this is a movie and can't be necessarily based on 100% accurate truth. What I want to know is through which routes the AK got their weapons and with which country's weapons they were equipped, for example, submachine guns and rifles in these movie clips.
Some were bought (Yes!).
You should add "from German soldiers" (and also Hungarian, Italian and perhaps Slovakian).

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Kunikov
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Post by Kunikov » 08 Aug 2005 16:56

Qvist wrote:Kunikov;

I hardly think Rokossovsky's memoirs are a very objective source for AK/Red Army relations. The supposed reluctance of the Warsaw AK to have anything to do with the Red Army is in rather marked contrast to what is told in f.e., Norman Davies, Rising '44. As is indeed obvious - the rising was doomed if the Germans were allowed to deal with it in isolation, which the AK leadership knew very well. Hence, it was fundamentally predicated on the expectation of the arrival of the Red Army, on which everything depended. Their non-arrival appears to have been at least considerably due to increased German resistance, and so the AK leadership clearly miscalculated. I do not think however they can reasonably be accused of having failed to co-ordinate themselves in advance with a Red Army that was already rounding up AK soldiers in Eastern Poland after having fought alongside them, and with which the Warsaw AK had no reliable means of communication.

cheers
There is bais in every work, do you think Davies is free from it? Looking at some of the reviews on amazon (even though I do own his book and plan on reading it sometime soon). Bottom line is that I believe the Red Army did all it could, the AK did not facilitate good relations, and now Poles can only complain and blame the Red Army for something they are not even guilty of.

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Qvist
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Post by Qvist » 08 Aug 2005 17:19

Hello Kunikov

Yes, there is bias in every book and certainly Davies is far from free from it - his sympathies are very clearly and obviously with the Poles, not just with regard to the rising but also in more general terms. However, it is also as far as I can tell well-researched, well-argued, and bases its conclusions on evidence acquired and presented according to normal objective historiographical stabdards. This is not a bias that is comparable to what inevitably attaches to the autobiography of one of the main actors in the events themselves, and which to boot was published in a system where there was no scope for deviation from the official version of events - and certainly not on an issue as politically important and as festering as this. It is difficult to imagine almost any work where the call for scepticism is more obvious than here.

Davies, BTW, does not argue that the Red Army stopped on the other side of the Vistula out of pure malignance - on the contrary, he attributes this primarily to the strength of the German opposition. However, to put the responsibility on the AK for the strained relations is I think you will find something Davies would consider absurd, and here I must confess I would agree with him.

cheers

minimus
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Re: Anti-tank Weapons of Armiya Krakova

Post by minimus » 08 Aug 2005 23:19

killchola wrote:Didn't they have any anti-tank weapons except Molotov cocktails and some captured Panzerfausts?
A lot of weapons were from RAF (and other) air drops, and taken from the Germans. Molotov and British Piat were most common anti tank weapons.

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