Warsaw Uprising 1944

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szopen
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Post by szopen » 02 Sep 2005 12:39

Askold wrote:
In some number Ukrainians (under gen. Wlasov) and Cossacks
- There were no Ukrainians under Vlasov (correct spelling) command in Warsaw. In fact, there was no Vlasov troops present. The only Russian troops participating in supression of uprising, was sturmbrigade RONA (commanded by a Polish guy called Bronislaw Kaminski) and Terek cossacks.
Half-Polish. Similarly you could say that Bohdan Chmielnicki was Polish.

But about Vlasov, well, i'm affraid it is similar crusade as against myth "Polish cavalry charged agaisnt tanks". It is too grounded in people's mind. Polish AK veterans were very often calling all Russian and Ukrainian units "Wlasowcy".

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Musashi
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Post by Musashi » 03 Sep 2005 15:55

szopen wrote:
Askold wrote:
In some number Ukrainians (under gen. Wlasov) and Cossacks
- There were no Ukrainians under Vlasov (correct spelling) command in Warsaw. In fact, there was no Vlasov troops present. The only Russian troops participating in supression of uprising, was sturmbrigade RONA (commanded by a Polish guy called Bronislaw Kaminski) and Terek cossacks.
Half-Polish. Similarly you could say that Bohdan Chmielnicki was Polish.

But about Vlasov, well, i'm affraid it is similar crusade as against myth "Polish cavalry charged agaisnt tanks". It is too grounded in people's mind. Polish AK veterans were very often calling all Russian and Ukrainian units "Wlasowcy".
Having read information on a few Polish forums long time ago I think Askold is right.

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Kim Sung
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Post by Kim Sung » 03 Sep 2005 16:02

These survivors all say 'Vlassov' or 'Ukrainian'. Wasn't there Ukrainians really? I don't mean to defame Ukrainians, but just want to know the truth.


http://www.warsawuprising.com/witness/atrocities2.htm
After committing these revolting atrocities, the soldiers left the Institute for a while. The 70 patients and the 7 members of the staff still remained in the building. The nurses stealthily cooked hot food for the patients at night and looked after them. Between August 6 and 9 Vlassov’s men returned from time to time to the hospital, and took away girls of 13 or 14, whom they violated and then killed in the garden. They repeatedly carried out executions in the grounds of the Institute, after driving their victims to the spot from the city, and sometimes they set fire to the building again.

http://www.warsawuprising.com/witness/atrocities3.htm
Then 70 men were called out and again shots were heard; then the last group; among them the doctors, assistants and male nursing staff. To this group we also belonged, that is to say myself and another priest, Antoni Branszweig (alumn). I succeeded at the last moment in slipping away from the group which was coming out and hid among some nuns. The party of doctors were led out to death before my eyes. I did not see the execution itself, I only heard the volleys. I was told afterwards that the executions took place inside and in the courtyards of burning houses, at several places in Gorczewska Street. In the last group I saw Prof. Grzybowski, Dr. Drozdowski, Dr. Sokolowski, and Dr. Lempicki led out for execution.

Next day, disguised as a nun, I was taken with the remainder of the women in the direction of the Wola fortifications. During that march I escaped.

More than 200 people from Wola Hospital were then shot.

The criminals belonged to SS and Ukrainian* detachments.

http://www.warsawuprising.com/witness/atrocities7.htm
They had been evacuated from the shelters under some houses in Wolska Street. When they had been in the streets, Vlassov’s men threw inflammable liquid over them and drove them among the burning houses. Their clothes at once caught fire, especially the women’s light dresses, and several of them could go no further. The others struggled on terribly burnt. As they could not walk any further, they were taken to, the hospital. Their sufferings were awful; the eyes of some were burnt out, faces were burnt, others had open wounds on the whole body. Only one-third of these victims survived; the others died after inhuman suffering.

http://www.warsawuprising.com/witness/atrocities8.htm
The rest were driven into the field. Shortly after we heard shots coming from the direction in which they had been taken. (Among them was one priest). From the owner of this house I learnt afterwards that in this group the men had been separated from the women and all shot. Later I saw Vlassov’s men rush into a school building at No. 21, Maria Kazimiera Street, and order all those who were there (many people) to go out into the yard. Meanwhile our ho use began to burn; we came out of our shelter and went into the adjoining school, from the windows of which we saw further incidents. The Germans ordered people who were in the school yard to go out into Maria Kazimiera Street, where they were joined by others from No. 21. Some refused to go and began to turn back; then the soldiers fired at them from all sides, killing them all. Among those who had been previously driven from the school was a woman with a child in a perambulator. She was killed with the others in Maria Kazimiera Street. A few moments afterwards I saw a soldier come over to the perambulator and shoot the child.

http://www.warsawuprising.com/witness/atrocities9.htm
We were ordered to carry these corpses from the pavement of Mirowska Street to the little square between the Halls. With other men I carried the corpses and noticed while doing so that all of then were of more or less middle-aged men. After carrying these corpses we were ordered to remove the barricade which was across the tram line from Zelazna Brama Square to Zelazna Street. Having removed part of this barricade and thus enabled tanks to pass, we were brought in the direction of Zelazna Street, where we were halted, and ordered to put up our hands. We were asked several times if there were no Volks-or Reichsdeutsche among us . Next we were searched; everything of value, such as rings, watches and cigarettes, was taken from us. After being searched we were left standing on the same spot for about an hour and a half. Not far from us were groups of soldiers, in all about 200 men; our prayers for release were answered by the soldiers with laughter and derision. They spoke German , Russian land Ukrainian. One of them told us repeatedly that we should be killed at any moment.

http://www.warsawuprising.com/witness/atrocities10.htm
Then I crept from the window to the centre of the cellar. By the light of the burning fire I saw under the window in the direction of Oleander Street a pile of burnt human bones, and ashes. I went into the adjoining smaller cellar. There, under the window which looked on to Marszalkowska Street, I saw about 20 corpses of men only. I then retreated to a cellar on one side of the court-yard. There, in the darkness, I saw a man, Władysław Tymitiski. He told me that the Germans had taken him from No. 19, Marszalkowska Street, and had brought him to Anc’s shop from Oleander Street and there ordered him to jump on to the burning staircase. When he did so they had fired at him, but missed. This had happened one or two days before I found myself in the cellar of the chemist’s shop. We spent the night in one of the cellars. Next morning, Aug. 6, we met another man, Antoni Dudek, in the court-yard; he told us that a Ukrainian had fired at him in Oleander Street in front of the chemist’s shop. Dudek fell unconscious; after a while he felt the Ukrainian dragging him in the direction of the chemist’s shop. When he moved the Ukrainian threw him through the window into the burning cellar in Oleander Street.

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Kim Sung
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Germans' Trojan Horse

Post by Kim Sung » 03 Sep 2005 16:12

Did Germans get this idea from Odyssey?

http://www.warsawuprising.com/witness/likiernik2.htm
Two or three days after my arrival in the Old Town, I suddenly heard shouts of joy and cries of "hurrah!" just outside the hospital. I went to the window. On the corner of the street, a small tank captured from the Germans was surrounded by an enthusiastic crowd. I was still very slow on my feet and hadn't yet managed to get downstairs when a huge blast shook the building. Plaster came down from the ceiling and the whole building trembled as if shaken by an earthquake. I hobbled back to the window. The tank had disappeared, and in its place there was a large crater in the road. The vehicle had been a trap, a Trojan horse. Filled with explosives and fitted with a detonator, it was a time bomb.

No less than 200 people were killed and the number of wounded was even greater. The area was littered with bodies. Those standing near the tank had been thrown into the upper floors of nearby houses. From every direction there came the cries of the wounded. From being a patient, I turned into a nurse. Now I was looking for the husband of one wounded woman, now for the child of another ... Within minutes, the near-empty hospital filled with casualties. I needed a moment's rest and found a place in the cellar next to a man with severe burns. He had been one of the firefighters when an incendiary bomb hit the ground next to him. He was groaning with pain, while his wife and children sat with him, crying. I couldn't bear it any longer and left the cellar as fast as I could. There were now no more vacant beds in this hospital, and besides I'd had enough. I was about to leave the building when I came across one of our boys, Remec, from the Mokotow unit of Kedyw. He told me that the remnant of my troop were defending the John of God Church and mental hospital. Soon the two of us were on our way to rejoin them in action. I could just about walk, with difficulty.

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Askold
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Post by Askold » 08 Sep 2005 00:25

Musashi:

Having read information on a few Polish forums long time ago I think Askold is right

- There is a great Polish website on the subject and it provides a complete list of all german units that took part in the action. The russians in Warsaw, were from Kaminski unit - which at the time, had nothing to do with ROA.

Killchola:
These survivors all say 'Vlassov' or 'Ukrainian'. Wasn't there Ukrainians really? I don't mean to defame Ukrainians, but just want to know the truth.

- To understand why term "Ukrainians" is encountered, one needs to understand the mindset of a typical Pole in the 40's. Back then, and immediately after the war, there was a negative sentiment towards Ukrainians in Poland. Without knowing Ukrainian, people of Warsaw, automatically assumed that the soldiers were Ukrainian, despite them actualy being Russian. Both languages sound similar, and true as it is - back then, most of volunteers in German forces were Ukrainians and not Russians.

Szhopen:

How is Hmel'nyts'kyi a half-pole, cosidering that BOTH of his parents were Ukrainian?

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Post by szopen » 08 Sep 2005 10:57

Askold wrote: Szhopen:

How is Hmel'nyts'kyi a half-pole, cosidering that BOTH of his parents were Ukrainian?
No, we DON'T know what were nationality of his parents.
Khmelnytsky was probably born in Chyhyryn, in Ukraine; it is unclear whether to a family of Ruthenian nobility or to Polish nobility of Abdank Coat of Arms who had immigrated to Ukraine from Masovia.
In most of Polish history books there is mention that his family came from Masovia, so he was ethnic Pole (as many other Cossacks, including one of leaders of first Cossack uprising, who was probably Polish, and who fought against Ruthenian (that is: Ukrainian) magnate). Sometimes I read he had Ruthenian mother and Polish father.

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Kim Sung
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How could they remain?

Post by Kim Sung » 08 Mar 2006 11:47

I thought that almost all Warsaw citizens as a whole were deported to concentration camps after the surrender in October 1944. But, Antony Beevor says in his book A Writer at War there were still 162,000 inhabitants out of a pre-war population of 1,310,000 in January 1945 when the Soviets entered the city. Why didn't the Germans deport them?

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ToKu
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That seem to be another Bevoor's misleading information.

Post by ToKu » 08 Mar 2006 12:44

Beevor’s books… well they are good to read but often misleading. AFAIR in Berlin he wrote about Bolesław Drobner, first major of post war Wrocław (Breslau). According to Beevor he was a Breslau Jew who was made a major by Soviets. All ok, except that he was not a Breslau Jew, but Kraków communist who had nothing to do with Breslau before being appointed its major.

For numbers given in Writer at War.
Part of Warsaw located on Vistula western bank was completely demolished and deserted. Some people managed to stay alive, hidden among the rubbles, but they were counted in tens not in thousands. In Poland we’ve got good name for them, which fits them exactly: Warsaw’s Robinsons. Szpilman, pianist portrayed in Polański’s movie: “The Pianist” was one of them. I recommend this movie for Beevor.

Another thing is that small part of Warsaw located on eastern bank (Praga) was reached by Soviets in September 1944. Some Warsaw’s inhabitants surely remained there, but Soviets entered this part of Warsaw in September not in January. Parts of city they entered in January 1945 were deserted for sure.

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Kim Sung
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Post by Kim Sung » 10 Mar 2006 00:52

Then, how many people were in Praga when the Soviets reached there in September 1944?

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Victor
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Post by Victor » 10 Mar 2006 10:40

Kim Sung wrote:Then, how many people were in Praga when the Soviets reached there in September 1944?
Soviet troops reached Prague in May 1945. Don't you mean Warsaw?

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Kim Sung
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Post by Kim Sung » 10 Mar 2006 10:43

Victor wrote:
Kim Sung wrote:Then, how many people were in Praga when the Soviets reached there in September 1944?
Soviet troops reached Prague in May 1945. Don't you mean Warsaw?
Victor, I did mean Praga, not Prague.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Praga

Prague is Praga in Romance languages including Romanian, so you misunderstood. :D
Last edited by Kim Sung on 10 Mar 2006 10:54, edited 1 time in total.

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Victor
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Post by Victor » 10 Mar 2006 10:53

Right. My mistake.

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Post by pavle » 12 Mar 2006 11:12

I did not see the book ss sonderkommando dirlewanger mentioned in this thread, there is also a superb account of the
fighting in warsaw through the eyes of the brigade, but the first hand account of schenk is absolutaly superior to the battle account of the dirlewanger unit(although it covers only a few episodes of the battle).

Does any one know why exactly Kaminski was shot by the germans(Macleans book mentions that the german officers themselves feared kaminski and some mutiny(read insanity) struck kaminski and supposedly he was taken behind lines, can anyone state clearly why he was shot? (was there a refusal of orders commited by kaminsky, or did they plainly shot him for totally losing it)

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Yuri
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Post by Yuri » 04 Aug 2006 21:24

Qvist wrote:Hello Kunikov
Davies, BTW, does not argue that the Red Army stopped on the other side of the Vistula out of pure malignance - on the contrary, he attributes this primarily to the strength of the German opposition. However, to put the responsibility on the AK for the strained relations is I think you will find something Davies would consider absurd, and here I must confess I would agree with him.

INSTRUCTION STAVKA of SUPREME HEADQUARTERS
COMMANDER ARMIES 2-ÃÎ THE BELARUS FRONT
ABOUT THE POSITION AT NEGOTIATIONS WITH COMMAND OF THE POLISH GUERRILLA DIVISION

Moscow
On March, 24th, 1944
No 202270

On your encryption from 3/23/1944 for No 135/k Stavka Supreme Headquarters orders:

1. To transmit command of the Polish guerrilla division, that its joint actions with Red Army desirable under condition of full submission, in every respect, only to command of Red Army, on behalf of command of the Belarus front. The diarchy in military science cannot be. The division can have connection with everybody, Sosnkovsky or whom another, but in the actions it should will obey to orders of Red Army if it really wishes to operate together with Red Army against German aggressors.

2. In case of acceptance of these conditions the Polish guerrilla division should be provided by command of Red Army of all necessary for fight.
The division should be concentrated in one area and is used for performance of fighting tasks on one of sites of front.

3. If commands of the Polish guerrilla division will refuse to accept these conditions, joint actions with Red Army and as her material maintenance are considered inadmissible.

4. On results of negotiations and about the Polish guerrillas in general to inform on a regular basis.

The Stavka of Supreme Headquarters
I. Stalin
A. Antonov.


CAMD RF.
f. 3, i. 11556, f. 15, s. 70-71. The certified copy.



Those forces AK which refused to submit to it in every respect proved, and, the main thing, reasonable the requirement from Stavka disarmed only.
Absolutely same requirements Anglo-American Command has presented to the French forces of the general de Gaulle.
If the general de Gaulle has refused to execute requirements of Anglo-Americans it is possible to not doubt, that he would be arrested.
The Frenchmen (the general de Gaulle not exception) reasonable people also reckoned with real position. The Frenchmen have obeyed to the requirement of Anglo-American command.
The opposite picture was observed in actions of the London Poles.
Known Polish arrogance, ignoring from the London Poles of a reality and as consequence refusal to subordinate the actions to Command of Red Army, here, that became the reason of disarmament of forces AK.

All other is propaganda cliches.
Any command in the world will not allow, that in his operative zone walked about armed the groups, not doing will obey to his requirements.
Here the double morals is clearly visible.
Requirements of Anglo-Americans to the Frenchmen it is normal.
Similar requirements Stavka to the London Poles it is not so normal.
Resistance to disarmament suppressed with force. No politics only business.

/
Yuri

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Post by Michate » 05 Aug 2006 08:03

If the general de Gaulle has refused to execute requirements of Anglo-Americans it is possible to not doubt, that he would be arrested.
The Frenchmen (the general de Gaulle not exception) reasonable people also reckoned with real position. The Frenchmen have obeyed to the requirement of Anglo-American command.
Look at the Straßburg issue to learn how incorrect that is.

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