Warsaw Uprising 1944

[Musashi]

Hi,

I would like to throw another question in this forum. What happened to the many Polish brave people from Warsaw after the uprising?

They have been expelled from Warsaw and the city has been razed to the ground after the expelling. Some insurgents were placed in concentration camps and some in PoW camps. They were "lucky", because all the captured Polish partisans had been executed or hanged before. The Germans agreed to acknowledge the Warsaw insurgents as soldiers, what had never been applied before towards Polish insurgents/partisans.

[Benoit Douville]

Musashi,

Your last sentence is interesting, you mean that the Germans recognized the Warsaw insurgents as soldiers and they didn't recognized the A.K. as soldiers? I just want to understand correctly what you mean.

Regards

[Qvist]

Musashi is correct. The Warsaw insurgents negotiated armed combatant status as part of their surrender to Bach-Zelewski, and this appears to have been respected by the Germans (ie, the surrendered AK forces in Warsaw were generally correctly treated as POWs for the rest of the war). Normally, the Germans did not accord combatant status to captured AK soldiers.

cheers

[mietek]

Musashi,

the Germans recognized the Warsaw insurgents as soldiers
Regards

Main reason to recognise Warsaw Home Army soldiers as military combatants it was the idea to create and use Volkssturm.
Volkssturm would fight ofthen in civilian cloth, without uniforms only with armband. Similar was in case of Warsaw uprising.
By recognising Poles as the soldiers, Germans wanted same for the Vollkssturm. Germans wanted to set the standards for the future to protect their own people.

mietek

[Qvist]

Mietek, do you have any source for that? As far as I have understood, the Germans were far from keen on this point. The AK only secured combatant status for its troops by making it an absolute precondition for a surrender agreement, and only got German approval after long and hard negotiations. Also, the Germans continued to treat AK soldiers captured elsewhere and at later times in accordance with previous practice.

cheers

[mietek]

Hi.
Unfortunately I don't rember when and where I found it. I'm sorry.

mietek

[Kim Sung]

When I think over the atrocities committed by RONA, I can't understand why Bronislaw Kaminski, who was of the Polish origin, was so cruel to his countrymen that even Germans turned their back to him in the end. Why did he show extreme cruelty, not gaining psychological support from Germans? Because he knew there was no possiblity of his survival in the war which was running against collaborators like him?

[Benoit Douville]

Qvist,

I appreciated the info. About the atrocities commited by the Kaminski Brigade during the 1944 Warsaw Uprising, well to answer that question is really difficult why they act with so cruelty and savagery against the innocent Polish population is really tough to understand.

Regards

[Musashi]

When I think over the atrocities committed by RONA, I can't understand why Bronislaw Kaminski, who was of the Polish origin, was so cruel to his countrymen that even Germans turned their back to him in the end. Why did he show extreme cruelty, not gaining psychological support from Germans? Because he knew there was no possiblity of his survival in the war which was running against collaborators like him?

The explanation is as simple as strange. My grandfather and grandmother (father's parents) were living in the territories, which were ceded to the Soviet Union after the war and belong to Ukraine now. My grandmother was living in Tarnopol (the present Tyernopil) and my grandfather in Buczacz (the same in Ukrainian; pronounce "Buchach" in English).
So... the things were complicated and fucked up . There were many Polish-Ukrainian marriages there. For example my grandma's mother was an Ukrainian and her father was a Pole. It happened many times if there were many children in such families for example one brother and one sister considered themselves the Poles and 2 remaining brothers considered themselves Ukrainians. If one of these brothers was a member of UPA, he could denounce his brother, sister or even father they are Polish patriots. Sometimes he even killed them. NO JOKE. It even happened more often than just "sometimes". There was the most tragic thing at any war - you could not be sure of who your enemy is. You could not be sure of even your closest family.
My grandmother had a sister, who did not want to talk with her, when my grandma visited her in 1956 (with my father, when he was 7), because she considered herself "Ukrainian". She had nothing personal against my grandma, but simply did not want to talk with her. The rest of the family she visited (her mother, brother, other sister and even their grandchildren) did not behave so and talk with her, but you have an example.
As I said, nothing but a "fuck-up" is the most appropriate here.
Therefore is not a surprise for me Kamiński had both Polish first and last name and he had nothing against extermination of Poles. My grandparents were talking such stories, Kamiński's example is really "nothing" comparing to them.

Regards,
Krzysiek

[Molobo]

Was Kaminski half-Ukrainian ? I thought he was from German-Polish familyand lived all his life in Soviet Union.Anyway I don't think he was concerned with ethnic background much, just a petty psychopatic criminal which Reich used.
As to atrocities, I know at least one example where non-German soldiers wanted to spare a women with children but German officer insisted on killing her.

[razvedka]

Hi Guys,

Thanks for the replies. Does there exist in Warsaw a veterans association? I've tried to make contact through the internet, but untill not a lot of reaction, which is a shame. I have a list of almost all Polish forced labourers that came to Kahla and that were in the Camp Nr 2 (Lager II) and 3 (Lager III).

Greetings,

Patrick

[Stephan]

As far as I have understood, the Germans were far from keen on this point. The AK only secured combatant status for its troops by making it an absolute precondition for a surrender agreement, and only got German approval after long and hard negotiations. Also, the Germans continued to treat AK soldiers captured elsewhere and at later times in accordance with previous practice.

I have read the AK had some help with negotiations by west-allied pressure. The allies had too demands on the germans.

[Ogorek]

One might aslo take into consideration Bach-Zalewski, and his seeing which direction the war was going...... A pre-cursor to his performance at Nuremberg

[Liluh]

I`ve got some sort of contact with some local veteran`s assiociations. I`m also getting 'Warsaw Uprising Museum' membership badge soon


Now an interesting fact.

My grandfather togheter with his two brothers lived through whole uprising (all joined it in 7th day) and put down weapons with 10.000 other insurgents when it was finally over. Togheter with some friends they dismantled a 'vis' pistol and bullets. Each guy took one part. This way they actually made it to transport one fully operational pistol to POW camp
Anyway, insurgents were taken to train station in Zyrardow (close to Warsaw) and then transported to the west, often splitted to different camps. My grandfather togheter with his older brother spent two weeks being transported in cattle wagons and then forced to walk the remaining way (obviously it was impossible to use train any longer). They had barely anything to eat, but from what my grandfather says, it wasn`t as much due to bad treatment, it was just an ongoing supply shortage in the last months of Third Reich. They both lost around 20kg and got sick. They finally end up in POW camp somewhere around or in Lubeck. It was suppoused to be officers camp (my grandfather got promoted to lt. prior to capitulation) with a lot of french officers, some brits and dutch aswell if I remember correctly. Once they got there, life got better. Germans guarded the camp more or less carelessly, especially during the final months. Guards were keen to trade with the prisoners (POW`s were recieving parcels from Red Cross). Finally, POW`s actually released theirselves on their own and dissarmed remaining guards who didnt flee before US forces arrived. Kinda funny, isn`t it?
It`s a quite interesting story but I`ll cut it short. My grandfather and his brother got a car (actually, confiscated a civilian car... *cough*)and went to Austria looking for younger brother and their friend (they were splitted during transport). Whole bunch then travelled around occupied (by western powers) reich territories and traded gasoline and other stuff from US armies supplies... *cough* But that`s another story, pretty amusing too. After around 6 months they came back to Poland only to be arrested and tortured due to their AK past.

Another interesting fact. Time: Last days of uprising. Place: Central sectors of Warsaw. Situation: food shortage.
Their squad was settled in building surrounding a little open space, field, where somebody planted tomatoes during earlier more peacefull times. Germans were on the opposite side. One night a sentry reported that Germans are sneaking up and stealing those tomatoes. What?! Our tomatoes?! said the CO and whole squad went to the field. They saw Germans and vice versa. Germans said "nicht schissen!" and after a minute, both enemy squads were just gathering those damned tomatoes and chatting. When they finished picking up vegetables, both groups went back to their posts without giving out a single shoot.

[dragos]

Was Dirlewanger a psychopath? A veteran related in a show on Discovery Channel that he ordered the shooting of all the wounded in a hospital, in spite there were both Polish and German soldiers wounded there.