Hi all. Hope this is the proper place for this query.
I once read that when the British and French tried to reconstitute a Polish Army after the fall of Poland, they found they often had many officers and few enlisted men. Rather than break morale and military tradition by reducing ranks, this surplus of officers was dealt with by creating all-officer units. For example, majors and colonels were the "officers", captains were the "NCOs", and lieutenants were the "privates" or "enlisted men". The author (James Dunnigan) also wrote that the Soviet Army would sometimes assemble all-officer units for special missions. I haven't found more information online. Anyone else hear of this practice?
Polish all-officer units.
Sounds preposterous to me.
But first things first...
see here:
http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Polish ... rld_War_II
First, you should be aware that after the September Campaign there were legal Polish Goverment in excile (see: http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Polish ... 1939-19900) and all Polish units were under his political command.
Would you be so kind and tell us or quote Mr. Dunnigan which was such unit (consisted solely with officers due lack of enlisted men) but exactly say 1st div 2nd batialion...
I help you out with list of units in France in 1940:
Polish 1st Armoured Grenadiers Division - gen. Bronisław Duch
Polish 2nd Rifle Division - gen. Bronisław Prugar-Ketling
Polish 3rd Infantry Division - gen. Rudolf Dreszer
Polish 4th Infantry Division - col. Tadeusz Kalina-Zieleniewski
Polish Independent Highland Rifle Brigade - gen. Zygmunt Bohusz-Szyszko
Polish 10th Armoured Cavalry Brigade (10éme Brigade de cavalerie motorisée) - gen. Stanisław Maczek
Polish Independent Carpathian Rifle Brigade - gen. Stanisław Kopański
Best regards!
But first things first...
You put it like Poles didn't want to went on fighting and French/British had to 'reconstitute' Polish Army.I once read that when the British and French tried to reconstitute a Polish Army after the fall of Poland
see here:
http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Polish ... rld_War_II
First, you should be aware that after the September Campaign there were legal Polish Goverment in excile (see: http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Polish ... 1939-19900) and all Polish units were under his political command.
Would you be so kind and tell us or quote Mr. Dunnigan which was such unit (consisted solely with officers due lack of enlisted men) but exactly say 1st div 2nd batialion...
I help you out with list of units in France in 1940:
Polish 1st Armoured Grenadiers Division - gen. Bronisław Duch
Polish 2nd Rifle Division - gen. Bronisław Prugar-Ketling
Polish 3rd Infantry Division - gen. Rudolf Dreszer
Polish 4th Infantry Division - col. Tadeusz Kalina-Zieleniewski
Polish Independent Highland Rifle Brigade - gen. Zygmunt Bohusz-Szyszko
Polish 10th Armoured Cavalry Brigade (10éme Brigade de cavalerie motorisée) - gen. Stanisław Maczek
Polish Independent Carpathian Rifle Brigade - gen. Stanisław Kopański
Best regards!
There was the “Officers Legion” in Egypt, consisting of surplus officers, many too old for frontline service that provided a training and support function.
In England there were “Cadre Brigades,” very top heavy with officers that were eventually be filled when other ranks became available.... they were mostly used in coastal defense in Scotland, and there was an all-officer armored train operating in Scotland.
The reason that there were so many officers and so few OR in 1940-41, was that the Polish Army in France the officers were usually from Poland, and the rank and file were from France..... with the capitulation of France, the “French” Poles were discharged to go back to their families, and the officers made for England.
The 4th Cadre Infantry Brigade was originally slated to go to Canada to recruit Poles living in North America... little came of that plan, and eventually the 4th Brigade became the 1st Independent Parachute Brigade.
In England there were “Cadre Brigades,” very top heavy with officers that were eventually be filled when other ranks became available.... they were mostly used in coastal defense in Scotland, and there was an all-officer armored train operating in Scotland.
The reason that there were so many officers and so few OR in 1940-41, was that the Polish Army in France the officers were usually from Poland, and the rank and file were from France..... with the capitulation of France, the “French” Poles were discharged to go back to their families, and the officers made for England.
The 4th Cadre Infantry Brigade was originally slated to go to Canada to recruit Poles living in North America... little came of that plan, and eventually the 4th Brigade became the 1st Independent Parachute Brigade.
Fredd, you have my apologies. The Poles were itching to fight.
James Dunnigan wrote about one page worth of text on these all-officer units in his book Dirty Little Secrets of World War II. He writes of the Poles assembling a Polish army in Great Britain, after the fall of France and the loss of Polish troops there. He writes:
"As the new army was being formed it transpired that there were too many officers and too few enlisted men. There were obvious reasons for this. After all, the men who were training in Great Britain at the time of the fall of France were mostly officers, and those most motivated to escape from German-occupied France were mostly officers as well. There was no way to employ most of these officers in their proper rank. Nor was it impossible to reduce them in rank, a matter that not only would have been disastrous for morale but that was contrary to Polish military law. Eventually a novel solution was found, units consisting entirely of officers.
The all-officer units were organized precisely as regular units. So a company conformed to the standard table of organization established for its particular arm of service, save that instead of privates there were lieutenants, instead of noncommissioned officers there were captains, instead of lieutenants, there were majors, and instead of a captain there was a lieutenant colonel or a colonel. The new units had some problems, since officers had different privileges, rights, and obligations than did enlisted men, but they worked moderately well. Although this expedient may seem at first glance to have been rather silly, it was by no means a bad solution. It preserved the military skills of the officers in question, skills that would eventually be needed if the manpower problem could be resolved. And this proved to be the case. As time went on, increasing numbers of expatriate Poles, including many from the United States, made their way to Great Britain to enlist. And after Hitler invaded the Soviet Union, the Russians were eventually persuaded to release tens of thousands of Polish prisoners of war, mostly enlisted men, since Stalin had massacred the bulk of the Polish officers who had fallen into his hands in 1939."
At the end of the text he writes, "As an aside, the Poles were not the only ones to have all-officer units. The Russians did this on purpose when they needed units that were of unquestioned reliability and competence. When the Soviets introduced mass conscription after World War I (prior to that, conscription had been very selective), they found themselves with a lot of well trained officers, not many NCOs, and a lot of indifferent troops. Their occasional expedient for this situation was to form units made up solely of officers. This continued after the war, whenever they needed a unit that just had to get it right the first time, and was still occasionally resorted to right into the 1980s."
So between the Poles and Russians, anyone hear of this practice?
James Dunnigan wrote about one page worth of text on these all-officer units in his book Dirty Little Secrets of World War II. He writes of the Poles assembling a Polish army in Great Britain, after the fall of France and the loss of Polish troops there. He writes:
"As the new army was being formed it transpired that there were too many officers and too few enlisted men. There were obvious reasons for this. After all, the men who were training in Great Britain at the time of the fall of France were mostly officers, and those most motivated to escape from German-occupied France were mostly officers as well. There was no way to employ most of these officers in their proper rank. Nor was it impossible to reduce them in rank, a matter that not only would have been disastrous for morale but that was contrary to Polish military law. Eventually a novel solution was found, units consisting entirely of officers.
The all-officer units were organized precisely as regular units. So a company conformed to the standard table of organization established for its particular arm of service, save that instead of privates there were lieutenants, instead of noncommissioned officers there were captains, instead of lieutenants, there were majors, and instead of a captain there was a lieutenant colonel or a colonel. The new units had some problems, since officers had different privileges, rights, and obligations than did enlisted men, but they worked moderately well. Although this expedient may seem at first glance to have been rather silly, it was by no means a bad solution. It preserved the military skills of the officers in question, skills that would eventually be needed if the manpower problem could be resolved. And this proved to be the case. As time went on, increasing numbers of expatriate Poles, including many from the United States, made their way to Great Britain to enlist. And after Hitler invaded the Soviet Union, the Russians were eventually persuaded to release tens of thousands of Polish prisoners of war, mostly enlisted men, since Stalin had massacred the bulk of the Polish officers who had fallen into his hands in 1939."
At the end of the text he writes, "As an aside, the Poles were not the only ones to have all-officer units. The Russians did this on purpose when they needed units that were of unquestioned reliability and competence. When the Soviets introduced mass conscription after World War I (prior to that, conscription had been very selective), they found themselves with a lot of well trained officers, not many NCOs, and a lot of indifferent troops. Their occasional expedient for this situation was to form units made up solely of officers. This continued after the war, whenever they needed a unit that just had to get it right the first time, and was still occasionally resorted to right into the 1980s."
So between the Poles and Russians, anyone hear of this practice?