The Anders' (Polish) Army

Discussions on all aspects of Poland during the Second Polish Republic and the Second World War. Hosted by Piotr Kapuscinski.
Rarog
Member
Posts: 209
Joined: 17 Jul 2003, 11:16
Location: Russia

#16

Post by Rarog » 12 Aug 2004, 11:45

And Polish ones too. 225.000 Polish soldiers in the West, close to half million in the east, and some 400.000 underground soldiers from AK, NSZ and AL.
Acc. to Polish stats (1947)
1947 году в Варшаве был опубликован “Отчет о потерях и военном ущербе, причиненном Польше в 1939-1945 г.г.” Потери своих войск поляки оценивают в следующих цифрах, тысяч человек: Сентябрьская кампания 1939 года — 66,3. 1-я и 2-я Польские армии на Востоке — 13,9. Польские войска во Франции и Норвегии — 2,1. Польские войска в английской армии — 7,9. Варшавское восстание 1944 года — 13,0. Партизанская война—20,0. Итого: 123,2 [49].
The September of 1939 campaing - 66 thousands
1st and 2nd armies in the East - 16 thousands
Polish regiments in France and Norway - 2.100
Polish-British regiments - 7/900
Waraw uprising - 13 thousands
Guerilla war - 20 thousands

that's just laughable

User avatar
Grom
Member
Posts: 23
Joined: 12 Dec 2003, 08:51
Location: North Atlantic
Contact:

#17

Post by Grom » 12 Aug 2004, 12:14

So ?? I'm not sure follow Your meaning ??


Rarog
Member
Posts: 209
Joined: 17 Jul 2003, 11:16
Location: Russia

#18

Post by Rarog » 12 Aug 2004, 12:39

isn't it Polish casualities?

User avatar
Grom
Member
Posts: 23
Joined: 12 Dec 2003, 08:51
Location: North Atlantic
Contact:

#19

Post by Grom » 12 Aug 2004, 12:52

Rarog wrote:isn't it Polish casualities?
So ??
Are U counting heroism in number of casulties ?? :idea: BRAVO BRAVO
hehs

szopen
Member
Posts: 814
Joined: 21 May 2004, 16:31
Location: poznan, poland

#20

Post by szopen » 12 Aug 2004, 13:15

Rarog wrote:isn't it Polish casualities?
Nope. Polish Casualties are about 6 million dead.

Polish military casualties, OTOH, are indeed much lower - 123.00

I have to note here that this losses are much higher that of many other countries nevertheless:

Australia: 23,400

Brazil: 493

Canada: 37,500

China: 2,050,000

Czechoslovakia: 46,000

France and Free French Forces: 210,000

Greece: 88,300

Luxembourg: 4,000

Netherlands: 7,900

New Zealand: 10,000

Poland: 123,000

South Africa: 6,840

Soviet Union: 19,180,000

United Kingdom: 264,000

United States: 292,000

Yugoslavia: 300,000


Note that only SU had losses counted in millions (wth exception of China). This could be attributed both to the treatment of PoWs, and insane tactics in initial phase of war, as well as total lack of respect for human life later on.

Axis losses:

Bulgaria (to 1944): 9,000

Germany: 3,500,000 (includes Austrians and Sudeten Germans in German Army as well as other nationalities forced to join the Wehrmacht)

Hungary: 200,000

Italy (to 1943): 60,000

Japan: 1,300,000

Romania (to 1944): 290,000

Vichy France: 1,200


Syaing that, i wonder what are you trying to say here, since i am quite unable to grasp it. That Poles are unworthy cowards because military losses were smaller that "Russian" (Actually, soviet, since Poles drafted to Soviet army are counted as Russians too)

szopen
Member
Posts: 814
Joined: 21 May 2004, 16:31
Location: poznan, poland

#21

Post by szopen » 12 Aug 2004, 13:25

Rarog wrote: You're trying to preent it like that the Polish army of Anders was unarmed and the soldiers couldn't move. I think it is NOT true.
And that's why few percent of Poles died from hunger and sickness AFTER they arrived into Anders' camps.
May I remind you of the heroism of exausted Russian civialians, who were digging anti-tank ditches? About defenders of Leningrad?
and you point is? That because Russian civilians (as Polish, for that matter) were heroic, then Anders should immedietely send any batallian he is able to form, one by one, to Soviet army, where they would end as isolated units under Soviet command, and would be destroyed one by one?
Poles evidently did not want to fight... oh no, noble Polish warriors did not want to be "cannoin fodder".
Monte Cassino.

And on the 5th day the Polish government run away...
Nope. It seems to you like evacuation of government (at 18th day) is something unusual to you.
However Polish military doctrine, as doctrine of every civilised country, was not about using of soldiers as cannon fodder. Soldiers should fight as long as they have chances, and then gave up. It's natural civilised behaviour, when facing civilised opponent. In 1939 Poles were believing that they are facing civilised opponents. That's why most units were not fighting to the last men, but to the point where their situation was hopeless, and then the commanders take the decision of giving up to save the soldiers' life. Respect for soldiers' life may be a novum for you, but it's normal in western communities. Western military doctrine is to not waste soldier's lifes were they can be of better use in future.
Sorry I don't buy that BS. Poles were illiterate morons and didn't read Mein Kampf? They knew nothing about Lebensraum? Nazi hatred towards Slavs? C'mon, give me a break![/quote]

Your point is? We believed that despite rhetoric Wehrmacht would behave as civilised army. And?

Rarog, i am seriosuly wondering how old are you. 16 ?

Rarog
Member
Posts: 209
Joined: 17 Jul 2003, 11:16
Location: Russia

#22

Post by Rarog » 12 Aug 2004, 13:48

szopen wrote:
Rarog wrote:isn't it Polish casualities?
Nope. Polish Casualties are about 6 million dead.

Polish military casualties, OTOH, are indeed much lower - 123.00
Exactly my point. Only 123K (or even less) KIA and 6 000 000 dead civilians.
and you point is? That because Russian civilians (as Polish, for that matter) were heroic, then Anders should immedietely send any batallian he is able to form, one by one, to Soviet army, where they would end as isolated units under Soviet command, and would be destroyed one by one?
exactly like the Russian units

but it looks like Poles didn't care much to restore their honour, as they preferred to wait till the end of the war in Iran...
Nope. It seems to you like evacuation of government (at 18th day) is something unusual to you.
LOL

The Polish government, realizing, that everything is over, started running to the border on the 5th day of the war.

And how's about the brave Polish military command? Why it left the army behind? 600 km away? LOL

Rarog
Member
Posts: 209
Joined: 17 Jul 2003, 11:16
Location: Russia

#23

Post by Rarog » 12 Aug 2004, 13:50

Your point is? We believed that despite rhetoric Wehrmacht would behave as civilised army. And?
a feeble exuse...

User avatar
Grom
Member
Posts: 23
Joined: 12 Dec 2003, 08:51
Location: North Atlantic
Contact:

#24

Post by Grom » 12 Aug 2004, 13:59

When i read such comments like rarog's stuff, then only one thing is in my brain. That Your points are clearly made by Central Political Office or might even KGB. I fell really sorry for such persons. For me subject is over

mietek
Member
Posts: 235
Joined: 14 Apr 2004, 17:09
Location: Poland-->Kent, UK

#25

Post by mietek » 12 Aug 2004, 14:01

Rarog wrote:
Remember, Poles are let to live due to sacrifice and heroism of Russian soldiers.
Yes, like my grandfather killed in Russian prison.
Grandmother cousin, killed in Siberia.
Uncle who died killed by NKVD.
Grandfathers first wife and his two children send to Kazachstan, where die from starvation.

That's Russian heroism.

Rarog - I think it's painful to live in the coutntry what was Empire 20 years ago, but now has economy lower than Asian countries. Wake up, Great Russia is over. Even tiny Chechenya is too big for you.

Best regards

mietek

Pirx
Member
Posts: 6
Joined: 09 Aug 2004, 10:48
Location: Poland

#26

Post by Pirx » 12 Aug 2004, 14:12

Dear Rarog
Maybe You don't know, but Russians from times of Katerina the Great where worst enemies of Poles. And today all Poles think that Russians are our worst enemies. Don't you wonder why? Most Poles hates Stalin, Lenin, and other leaders from Kremlin.
About Anders Army. It's obvious that Stalin didn't want independent Polish Army on Russian territory. So he agree to leave this soldiers + civilians to Iran (Persia then).
Besides i think that not nationality decides about courage of soldiers. Cowards where in Poland, Russia, Germany USA and so on. As well as heroes.

szopen
Member
Posts: 814
Joined: 21 May 2004, 16:31
Location: poznan, poland

#27

Post by szopen » 12 Aug 2004, 14:43

Rarog wrote:
szopen wrote:
Rarog wrote:isn't it Polish casualities?
Nope. Polish Casualties are about 6 million dead.

Polish military casualties, OTOH, are indeed much lower - 123.00
Exactly my point. Only 123K (or even less) KIA and 6 000 000 dead civilians.
Could you make your point clearer?

Because i cant quite see it. 123K military dead, while Poland was occupied, and 6.000K civilians, murdered by occupant. True. But what are you trying to say here?
and you point is? That because Russian civilians (as Polish, for that matter) were heroic, then Anders should immedietely send any batallian he is able to form, one by one, to Soviet army, where they would end as isolated units under Soviet command, and would be destroyed one by one?
exactly like the Russian units

[/quote]

You seem to forget that the whole point was to create Polish army which would fight as one unit. Sending soldiers immedietely without much chances to survive would be absurd and deny the whole point of starting the negotiations with Soviets.
but it looks like Poles didn't care much to restore their honour, as they preferred to wait till the end of the war in Iran...
Not just "they". You forgot the British. Or the Soviet refusal to provide further equipment and supplies. And demands that it should be British which should take care of it.

Not to mention that "wait to the end of the war" is not quite the description of what was happening then.

But then, when i wrote "Monte Cassino" i should've guessed that the name means nothing to you.

The Polish government, realizing, that everything is over, started running to the border on the 5th day of the war.
And? You think it should wait until it would be run over by Germans?

Rarog, i have to ask you for something. Try to discuss with me. I know it;s difficult to you, i know that other call you with names, but try to discuss and stop to using the same and the same absurd accusation and insults for hundredth time.

User avatar
MPG
Member
Posts: 4
Joined: 08 Aug 2004, 19:32
Location: Wyoming

#28

Post by MPG » 13 Aug 2004, 00:44

Perhaps the Poles didn't want to fight along side the Russians for the same reason that today Poland, Hungary, Czech Republic,Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia and Slovenia are members of NATO, instead of signing a military "Friendship" pact with the Russian Federation.

Have a nice day.

Martin Granica

User avatar
Mostowka
Member
Posts: 178
Joined: 10 Oct 2003, 01:18
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden.

#29

Post by Mostowka » 16 Aug 2004, 01:55

Rarog,

The Polish army and goverment did everything to defend Poland against the agression of Russia, Slovakia, Soviet union. Furthermore they did more, they served in great numbers in allied armies on many fronts. Also worth addind is that the Polish underground managed to do somethinf no other nation did: stage an uprising in the ruins of their own country in 1944.

Speaking in terms of measuring statistics as the level of heroism is very strange. Both the russian and polish people suffered immensly in the war and your words just fall plainly as disrespect to those people.

szopen
Member
Posts: 814
Joined: 21 May 2004, 16:31
Location: poznan, poland

#30

Post by szopen » 17 Aug 2004, 10:23

I have two books in my posession dealing with the Anders army fate in USSR. One is [1] "Rozproszeni po swiecie" by Elzbieta Wrobel and Janusz Wrobel (Chicago 1992) and second is "General Anders and Soldiers of 2nd Polish corps" by Harvey Sarner. [2]

Especially second one is quite interesting, There are few points there:

1) There was very high mortality between those who arrived into Anders' camp. E.g AFTER THE EVACUATION, from people evacuated from USSR into Iran, about 38 person died at ships and 33 while carrying from ship to hospital in Iran ( [1], p. 48). In total at least 3100 Poles died in Anders camps.

2) Soviets agreed for 44 thousand Polish soldiers, but later reduced food rations to 30 and finaly 26.000 - Andres had to divide that rations between 75.000 soldiers and 40.000 civilians (in 1942)

3) Soviets demanded that every single battallion after forming should be immedietely sent to front. If Anders would agree, it would refute whole point of forming separate Polish army.

4) In September 1941 for 10.000 soldiers there was 40 rifles and soldiers had to train with wooden atrapes ([2] p 60) yet Stalin insisted that Poles should be sent to fight by October). In October 40-75% (depending on division) of soldiers had no footwear, and only few had weapons.

5) Some better shaped soldiers were evacuated earlier and joined already formed Polish divisions in the west.

6) In February 1942 only one Polish division was fully equipped, but - in opinion of Zhukov - was totally unprepared to fight.

7) [2] p 71: Sikorsky wanted to have 300.000 Polish soldiers in USSR, Stalin preferred rather symbolic forces: to arm such number of Poles he would have to take weapons from his own soldiers.

8) [2] claims that decision of evacuation was made under both British and Soviet influence: British wanted to have Polish units in Iran and Palestine, Soviets didn't want to have Polish army in USSR

9) Sikorsky wanted that Anders would stay in USSR and continue to recruit soldiers - he insisted that Polish army should be fighting in USSR. Anders amde decision of evacuation of whole personel individually.

10) Interesting case about Jews: [2] claims again that it were both soviets and Biritsh which forced Polish army to not accept too many Jews, which was however cherished by some Polish officers. Anders was quoted to say that there is no point in saving people who immedietely after being saved will start to criticise Polish army. British forced Poles to abandon the plans to make exclusively Jewish unit.

If requested, i would post larger excertps - i am not doing it now because i would have to type it all and translated into English, which would be painful experience.

Post Reply

Return to “Poland 1919-1945”