Failure Of Polish Diplomacy Prior To WW2

Discussions on all aspects of Poland during the Second Polish Republic and the Second World War. Hosted by Piotr Kapuscinski.
Leutnant
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#16

Post by Leutnant » 20 Sep 2004, 16:28

Obserwator wrote:
and believed that Poland could eventually expand to the west as well as to the east, by seizing the German eastern territories (East Prussia, Pomerania, Silesia, and even Lausitz)
Oh but these were Polish territories before they were German.
How far back do you want to go?

Back before Attila the Hun invaded Europe,
Germanic tribes lived in what is now western Poland.

The Slavic Mainland was in present Byelorussia
when the Germanic tribes were routed by the Huns from their homelands,
the Slavs moved in from the east.
The Germans then invaded those areas again some 300 years later.

michael mills
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#17

Post by michael mills » 21 Sep 2004, 07:23

Obserwator et al:

I suggest you read the book "The Last Attempt", by the Swede Birger Dahlerus.

That book documents how the Polish Foreign Minister Beck firmly rejected all last-minute attempts to negotiate a compromise solution, and also how the Polish ambassador in Berlin, Jozef Lipski, stated to an official of the British Embassy that the Polish Government wanted war to break out because it believed that there would be a revolution in Germany and the Polish Army would be in Berlin within a week.


szopen
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#18

Post by szopen » 21 Sep 2004, 09:29

Micheal, it seems to me that you don't know much about Polish history.
Some of your claims are ridiculous.
michael mills wrote:Obserwator wrote:
The facts are thast Hitler sought a detente with Poland, and ended the "cold war" waged against Poland by the Weimar Republic.
True until 1937-8
He was prepared to accept the German-Polish frontier set by the Versailles Treaty, in exchange for detaching Poland from its alliance with France, in which it played the role of encircling Germany, and drawing it into a general East European system of alliances with Germany aimed against the Soviet Union.
Not true. The condition of Poland becoming German ally was German corridor and resigning for right in Danzig. Beck wrote in his memories about vague promises that "Black sea is sea too", that is, after Poland would resign from Pommern area it would get seaport somewhere in south AFTER war won with USSR.

No reasonable politician would agree for this.

The situation changed when Pilsudski died in May 1935, and was succeeded by the incompetent and feckless colonels of the Sanacja regime, in particular "First Citizen" Ridz-Smigly. Unlike Pilsudski, they did not realise that they would have to choose between Germany and the Soviet Union,
..and believed that Poland could eventually expand to the west as well as to the east,...
Not true. You have misunderstood the policy of "equal balances" and you are taking some extreme Polish nationalists propaganda, not members of government. Quote please document (primary source: memories, orders anything) which would prove that Sanacja has some plans before 1939 on German eastern lands or Soviet western ones.
Until now you have failed to do this.
He was the main force behind the Polish terrorist uprisings in the
Nope. While he was popular there, he played no role in any stage of any of uprisings. He was in Paris you know.

Additionally, why terrorist? Were insurgents not wearing uniforms with clear isignia of nationality? Were they shooting civilians? Were they, for that matter, shooting or imprisoning German administration? Well, as you probably know, not. German clerks were initially all on their positions, only they were given Polish "helper" guy, and only later they were replaced *NO REPRESSIONS).

Insurgents fought as regular army, so why "terrorists"?
he did not achieve his aim of driving the entire German population out, he did succeed in driving out nearly all the Jews remaining in the German territories annexed by Poland [they went to Germany]).
YOu are misinterpreting facts. First, Dmowski was one of many Polish politicians in on no point in Polish history he had any power in Polish government SUFFICTIENT to achieve such aims. German Jews were considering themselves Germans (mostly, not all) and were always voting for German parties etc - they were even sometimes "more catholic than pope" in that matter so it's not strange that they opted for German citizenship in 1920s (when all people had to choose whether they want to have only Polisuh, or only German citizenship. Most Germans and Jews opted for German citizenship and left Poland).
The feckless colonels of Sanacja wanted both Pilsudski's and Dmowski's programs of expansion, to both east and west.
Source, please. If you AGAIN fail to provide any primary source in which ANY MEMBER OF POLISH GOVERMENT had designs of expansion, i will apologise. But you have failed to prove anything until now. I am not talking about articles in newspapers, propaganda posters just before the war, but some primary sources. The memos from meetings, memories, orders, whatever.

szopen
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#19

Post by szopen » 21 Sep 2004, 09:31

LIpski and Beck are saying something different both in their memories and in pre-war memos interchanged between embassy and Warsaw.

szopen
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#20

Post by szopen » 21 Sep 2004, 09:38

Leutnant wrote:
Back before Attila the Hun invaded Europe,
Germanic tribes lived in what is now western Poland.

The Slavic Mainland was in present Byelorussia
when the Germanic tribes were routed by the Huns from their homelands,
the Slavs moved in from the east.
The Germans then invaded those areas again some 300 years later.
Well, not really. There are many theories of WHERE was Slavic homeland. Belarus? or neighbourhood of black sea? Of easternUkraine, western POland? Near Carpathia?

Despite, Slavs started to move to the east in some V century - maybe earlier, but there is no sense of saying about "Slavs" earlier, because as well they could be not already separated frm Balts then. in VI-VII century they expanded the most. Germans took the Elbe territories between 800-1200, while Silesia in XVI century, if you think that after Habsburgs took over Bohemia throne it became German, or in XVIII century, when Prussia took over it. The neumark etc was about XIII century. Pommerania also somehting about that period.

So it was not 300 years, but a bit more.

Despite, there is no real proof that Germans were living here EXCLUSIVELY. Surely they were there; but there could be another tribes. before 800 or so we can only speculate what was here earlier.

Leutnant
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#21

Post by Leutnant » 21 Sep 2004, 13:48

The Roman historians said that the Slavs lived by the Pripjat marshes,
they controlled all the Black Sea coast so I doubt the Romans would'nt have heard of them if they were in the neighbourhood.

Isn't it a widely accepted fact that Germanic tribes lived atleast as far east as the Vistula.
It's been documented that the Vandals lived between The Elbe and The Vistula.

What I meant was that if they left in the year 500 and started coming back in the year 800, it's 300 years later.

"while Silesia in XVI century"
??
Silesia was colonized by the Germans between 1200 and 1300,
or atleast my history books differs from Polish there (would'nt be the first time).

This is off-topic anyway, so I'll stop it here.

szopen
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#22

Post by szopen » 21 Sep 2004, 15:18

Leutnant wrote:The Roman historians said that the Slavs lived by the Pripjat marshes,
they controlled all the Black Sea coast so I doubt the Romans would'nt have heard of them if they were in the neighbourhood.
No, they were not mentioning Slavs at all. They were mentioning Germanic tribes here, but it's quite clear that they were not thikning in terms of language or race: one of them for example was speculating whether one tribe (commonly to think to be Slavs) should be categorised as Germans, because they "fight on foot" or as Sarmats.. I can bring whole fragment if you want.
Isn't it a widely accepted fact that Germanic tribes lived atleast as far east as the Vistula.
It's been documented that the Vandals lived between The Elbe and The Vistula.
Yes, but again: Our thinking about "Germanic" may be different from ancient, second: there were not only Germanic tribes but probably other as well (There are a lot of Celtic toponymes and hydronymes in Poland)
What I meant was that if they left in the year 500 and started coming back in the year 800, it's 300 years later.
More or less, but they haven't appearing in significant numbers in Silesia and elsewhere before 1150 or so.
"while Silesia in XVI century"
??
Silesia was colonized by the Germans between 1200 and 1300,
Nope. German settlers (in great numebr) arrived in SIlesia in around 1200 and 1300, that's true, but they have not "colonised" Silesia.
You are repeating XIX century historiography, when German historians assumed two facts which we now know are not true

1) "disastrous" Tatar invasion - German historians were saying that Tatars depopulated Poland and left it in ruins : while in political terms their invasion was disastrous, in other terms the most affected province was LEsser Poland (were there was not significant German colonisation), while Silesia was almost untouched. E.g. Breslau/Wroclaw was burned, that's true, but population - according to medieval srouces - escaped and found shelter in Breslau castle which was not taken. etc etc

2) All villages and cities located on German law were settled by German colonists. This is definetely not true. German law was considered (and was) superior to Polish in XIII century, so many existing cities and villages were simply given new set of laws (were "located on German law") while totally new settlements were rather rare. Examples which should convince you are for example Posen, which was located on German law in XIII century, while existed earlier since at least X century.

Poles were majority in Silesia well in XVI century, and in many regions well into XVIII century and even XIX. First printed Polish books were from XV century Silesia. When Prussians forbidden using of POlish in local regions, they had to withdraw because in some regions nobody was understanding German, so they had to stick to "Czech+German" rule.

I've read one Polish historian who, BTW argued that had not Prussia conquered Silesia, we would have separate Silesian nation. It was Prussia conquest which pushed back Silesians into Polish nation.

Besides, the German settlers in some regions were polonising (not forcefully) e.g. in Opole region. Opole region, Upper Silesia and Lubuska land were three main bastion of Polishness in Silesia up to second half of XIX century.

XIV-XVIII century Silesia was Bohemian BTW, not German. In XV century for example (when it was governed by Jagiellons) Silesia was sometimes ruled by Polish governors or even future Polish kings.

It's true that German colonisation started (even before) 1200, but it's not like they came and colonised empty country, you know.
or atleast my history books differs from Polish there (would'nt be the first time).
Well, from which year are those books?

szopen
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#23

Post by szopen » 23 Sep 2004, 10:37

michael mills wrote: Dmowski was pro-Russian, but anti-German and anti-Jewish. His aim was to expand Poland westward to the Oder-Neisse Line by seizing the German eastern territories, and to "cleanse" those territories of ethnic Germans and Jews.
Well, minor note here: I've found that Dmowski made his aim clear to western allies twice. He mentioned in them that Poland should get Posen, Gdansk Pommern, southern part of eastern Prussia, Upper Silesia and some regions in Opole Silesia etc.

I am not saying he wasn't dreaming about Oder-Neisse line, but i can't find any relation about him making any remark about it to Western allies. Or anywhere in what i have about him and his programme. Well, i could believe that he once made such statement, but could you Micheal give me some hint on where and when he wrote or said about Oder-Neisse line? And second, whether he was trying to pursue such idea?

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