Georgians in Polish Army

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Halibutt
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Re: Georgians in Polish Army

Post by Halibutt » 02 Nov 2012 16:20

Great find, mate. When speaking about Gorgians in the Polish Army people focus mostly on high-ranking officers, often forgetting that there were even Georgian contract NCOs. Oh, and I'm glad Agniaszwili's grave is taken care of, especially on such an important day. Good job, Cracovians :)

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Re:

Post by Stephan » 13 Nov 2012 20:05

Halibutt wrote:
yerbamatt wrote: After all they were allowed to the Polish Army because of Piłsudski's dream that one day Georgia will be reborn and that it will need an army. That's why they were accepted on a slightly different basis than, let's say, French or American officers
I myself dont think accepting the Georgians so fully wasnt "just" sympathy to foreigners with commone experience as one self, nor just some dreams of Pilsudski, but ALSO - I suspect they simply did needed trained officers and NCO.

Even if Poland had some trained cadres from ex Russia, Germany and Austria-soldiers, but now, in the new Poland, they had to build up an own, modern army, and also build up a cadre of reserve officers, not in hundreds nor thousands but in ten of thousands. So the need and demand for good military experts who would also be politically fully acceptable, and also without any strings attached - was great.

Im sure they would get good asylum in Poland anyway. Sympathy and all. The point is, they dont get just asylum and sympathy. Tey get welcommed and accepted in fully, these soldiers. And helped in much to build up the army and country.

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Halibutt
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Re: Georgians in Polish Army

Post by Halibutt » 13 Nov 2012 21:55

Not sure the supply vs. demand was indeed a problem. Historically most of the Georgians started off as NCOs, while what Poland lacked the most after the partitions were senior officers. There were *some* Poles with WWI staff experience, but neither Germany nor Russia accepted Poles as generals, except for if they were fully russified or germanised. Hence most of the generals Poland had in the 1920s were either former Austro-Hungarian generals or majors and colonels upgraded to generals' grades, often for lack of better candidates - and often with mediocre results. Poland was also lacking technical specialists, hence so many French and American airmen, tank platoon commanders and so on in the early years.

However, it's not that NCOs were in short supply, Poland had 2M+ veterans of WWI from all armies and most of them were either easily-upgradable to NCOs or were trained in German, Russian, French and Austro-Hungarian armies. Sure, in the hot summer of 1920 it was pretty much an all hands on deck situation, but still.

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henryk
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Re: Georgians in Polish Army

Post by henryk » 13 Nov 2012 22:09

Halibutt wrote:Not sure the supply vs. demand was indeed a problem. Historically most of the Georgians started off as NCOs, while what Poland lacked the most after the partitions were senior officers. There were *some* Poles with WWI staff experience, but neither Germany nor Russia accepted Poles as generals, except for if they were fully russified or germanised. Hence most of the generals Poland had in the 1920s were either former Austro-Hungarian generals or majors and colonels upgraded to generals' grades, often for lack of better candidates - and often with mediocre results. Poland was also lacking technical specialists, hence so many French and American airmen, tank platoon commanders and so on in the early years.

However, it's not that NCOs were in short supply, Poland had 2M+ veterans of WWI from all armies and most of them were either easily-upgradable to NCOs or were trained in German, Russian, French and Austro-Hungarian armies. Sure, in the hot summer of 1920 it was pretty much an all hands on deck situation, but still.
Actually there were many Polish high ranking officers in Czarist Russia, including generals. See this thread:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 1&t=138338
Polish Czarist Officers for Independent Poland

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Halibutt
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Re: Georgians in Polish Army

Post by Halibutt » 14 Nov 2012 11:14

henryk wrote:Actually there were many Polish high ranking officers in Czarist Russia, including generals. See this thread:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 1&t=138338
Polish Czarist Officers for Independent Poland
There were *some*, but a handful, and mostly they were of Polish ancestry, not Poles as such (i.e. spoke little to no Polish, were born in the Caucasus or Moscow or wherever to 2nd generation emigrants). Nowhere near to what status Polish (as in: Polish-speaking and Polish-born) officers could achieve in Austria-Hungary.

Nevertheless, even in 1939 the Polish Army still had generals who spoke very, very bad Polish. My favourite example - admiral Józef Unrug, born as Joseph von Unruh, who then went on to became a German WWI war hero. He never learned proper Polish. During WWII, when in a German POW camp, he spoke to Germans only through a Polish translator, even though Unrug himself was born and raised in Germany, spoke perfect German and I bet the poor translator had more trouble understanding his Polish than his German :)

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Re: Georgians in Polish Army

Post by michael mills » 16 Nov 2012 00:27

Actually there were many Polish high ranking officers in Czarist Russia, including generals
Waclaw Iwaszkiewicz.
Jozef Dowbor-Musnicki.
Lucjan Zeligowski.
Wladyslaw Anders.

From page 49 of "A History of Modern Poland" by Hans Roos.

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Halibutt
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Re: Georgians in Polish Army

Post by Halibutt » 16 Nov 2012 12:52

Not really, those are rather typical to what I wrote above.
Wacław Iwaszkiewicz-Rudoszański was a great exception rather than a rule. Born in Russia (his father was sentenced to life in Siberia), he rose to the rank of Colonel, probably the highest available to non-Russians and non-Germans in the tsarist army. It was not until WWI when the tsar started creating Polish units that he was promoted to general.
Józef Dowbor-Muśnicki - same scenario. Colonel. As a colonel he rose to battlefield command of an entire corps, yet still it was not until 1917, when walls were already crumbling on Russia, when he was promoted to Major General.
Lucjan Żeligowski - Lt. Col, then promoted to Colonel when he started leading Polish units in Russian Army.
Władysław Anders - until 1917 he was a mere Captain.

Really, we had plenty of NCOs and people with experience in regiment-size commands. The entire post-1926 government was dubbed the "government of colonels" because we really had plenty of them. What Poland was lacking in 1918-1920 were experienced high-ranking officers.

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henryk
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Re: Georgians in Polish Army

Post by henryk » 21 Nov 2012 20:31

I am continuing my discussion on http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 1#p1750791
as it is off topic here.
I repeat: there were many POLISH CZARIST RUSSIAN ARMY officers, including generals.

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